Deep Thoughts on Going Deep UPDATE

This post below has generated a bunch of comments so I thought I'd bring it to the top again. I loved what I read on Dave Ferguson's blog on Friday on this topic--they are in a series right now teaching their people the real meaning of spiritual maturity. He offers the following definitions:

• Spiritual Infancy = Getting fed.
• Spiritual Adolescence = Feeding yourself.
• Spiritual Adulthood = Feeding others.

What do you think? Read through the comments below and weigh in.

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Previous Post with Comments from 10/29/07

I've heard it many times in my 13 years at Granger -- "I need to find another church because I'm just not getting fed. I want to go deep..."

Evidently we're not the only ones that hear that. I read some great words from some very fine leaders on this recently...

• Steven Furtick says: "Churches are filled with those who have known Christ for decades, and still need a bib, a high chair, and want Daddy to do 'open wide, here comes the airplane' tricks with the fork before shoving it into their mouths.

  I try to serve up the Word, hot and fresh every single Sunday. But if you refuse to apply it, study your Bible and pray some during the week, join a small group and dig deeper with others…if you refuse to bring it back to your mouth, I can’t help you.

  Get your own fork, and learn to feed yourself.  Stop burying your hand in the dish and spitting out every thing that doesn’t give you a spiritual sugar high. Eat some vegetables.  Serve.  Pray.  Practically apply the Bible to your life."   Read more here.

• Perry Noble says: "I’ve heard it…you have too…'Christians' saying, 'I just want to be fed!' It blows my mind! This would be equal to you and I going to an all you can eat restaurant and crying because no one would bring us any food. Food is all around in this environment…but if the person is lazy and self centered, wanting to be waited on hand and foot, then they could possibly starve to death when food is merely a few feet away.

  "Today as Christians we have WAY more information than we could ever apply. However, I think many people use 'going deep' as an excuse as to not actually apply any of the knowledge they claim to be soaking up. I believe it breaks the heart of God when arrogant people claim intellectual superiority out of pride and stupidity rather than just seeking Jesus and trying to honor Him on a daily basis.

"In reading through the Scriptures I have found that Jesus’ strongest words of rebuke were for the 'deep,' the professional religious people of the day. If 'deep' is being a part of the group that knows tons about the Bible but missed Jesus–then I don’t want to be affiliated with them. Give me Jesus Christ, crucified, risen and who will one day return…not another Bible study on the weight of the Ark of the Covenant."   Read more here.

• Ben Arment says: "I've always felt troubled by phrases such as 'I need to be fed' or 'I need meat' when referring to spiritual growth. And not just because they're usually meant to be critical of a pastor's content... but I could never see this thinking in Scripture. Paul uses 'feed' and 'meat' in terms of where he expects Christians to be in their maturity, but it's never used by people to demand something."   Read more here.

Comments

[Clif]

Today's post is killer Tim, these quotes are great.

Sadly most of these "Christians" crying for meat would choke on it if they got it, it is apparent from the remarks they need the bottle a little longer.

[Steve]

Interesting...I too have had to deal with people saying they want the "meat" of the Word - mind you they have been a Christian all of 8 months and they still struggle with some of the same mess they did before they accepted Christ. BUT what about the people who are actually mature in the Word? The ubiquitous Willow Creek is doing a study right now about how the model they created isn't helping people who are "centered" in their walk with Christ. In fact their study shows that they are the people LEAST satisfied with the role the church is playing in their lives. Interesting stuff. I'm IN NO WAY affiliated with it, but I would encourage everyone to check it out.

The website is www.revealnow.com

Should add something significant to the conversation. Watch the videos, they're great.

[Steve]

Interesting...I too have had to deal with people saying they want the "meat" of the Word - mind you they have been a Christian all of 8 months and they still struggle with some of the same mess they did before they accepted Christ. BUT what about the people who are actually mature in the Word? The ubiquitous Willow Creek is doing a study right now about how the model they created isn't helping people who are "centered" in their walk with Christ. In fact their study shows that they are the people LEAST satisfied with the role the church is playing in their lives. Interesting stuff. I'm IN NO WAY affiliated with it, but I would encourage everyone to check it out.

The website is www.revealnow.com

Should add something significant to the conversation. Watch the videos, they're great.

[Rich Kirkpatrick]

Seems like "being fed" is code for something. I believe that there are truly needs a believer has the older and more mature he/she gets. When a church is bent on reaching the lost in programming and focus (we call our focus "spiritual beginners") then it is obvious that once people are beyond beginning in their faith they need more. Following Christ is a life-long endeavor and I think modern-contemporary-emerging-etc church has a challenge in what things will look like 20 years from now. The past decade has been amazing, but I caution myself in thinking I can so easily disregard the felt needs of the old saints. After all, we used to reach their felt needs when they were new in the faith. Now we are telling them "no"! The real issue is what to do to ween believers before they get cantankerous. What program does our church (or yours, any) have to do this? It is one thing to say "get rid of your bib" and another to foreshadow for the new Christian their life ten years into the future.

[Trevor Davis]

We have a teaching phrase around here that we use to emphasize this issue (we often touch this topic in our weekend service) - it is "Most Christians I know are already educated WAY beyond their obedience"...and that usually leads to a teaching moment...this is one of those issues that needs to be on the table from the teaching platform every once in a while.

[michaeldanner]

Ouch! Talk about some face melting quotes! I'm glad to hear more church leaders saying this loud and clear. (Check out Hebrews 5:11 - 14... Paul makes a similar point.)

IMO, there comes a point when the work that needs to be done in a person's heart is Holy Spirit work - they don't need to hear another sermon, read another book, sing another song, go to another meeting, class or small group - they need to get face-to-face with God. Without that, it doesn't matter how many more sermons you hear, books you read, songs you sing, meetings, classes and small groups you attend - you are stuck!

People will blame pastors because they are unwilling to take responsiblility for their own life and faith. In end you either do it or you don't - it's up to you.

[Michelle Wegner]

Um, yeah. This is what I have been thinking about the past few days...weeks..anyways. You're the star of my blog today. Check it out if you have time! :)

[Dan Murray]

Tim - a great and timely topic with some great straight talk. We have long heard the same complaints around here. We have been seeking ways to tackle the challenge head on. We are thinking of producing a "Rob Bellesque" video along the following lines: "Deep. What is deep? As you know we strive to be a place where anyone is welcome and where it is safe place to explore Christian faith. One of the potential struggles with this is that people who have been a Christian for a long time might feel somehow neglected or that we don't go deep enough into biblical teaching. Let's address this issue head on. We believe that seekers are interested in hearing and learning deep Christian truth or they wouldn't be here - you can handle the truth! And we are endeavouring to amp up the content of the message on Sunday. However, we also believe that truth needs to be lived out. It is better to take hold of one big idea each week and live it out in practice than to have a deep 10-point sermon and then forget it all as soon as you get home. We also believe that spiritual growth happens in community, not as lone rangers. Life Groups exist for this kind of growth. And we intentionally add more depth to the content of the Sunday message for Life Groups to chew on and apply during the week. Finally, we believe that growth is directly related to action - we need to put our faith in motion through leadership, service, mentoring and discipling others, serving the poor, and engaging with people who are exploring faith questions. As a last comment, there is also a really important role of learning to feed yourself - to read and meditate on scripture, pray, devour good books and generally pay attention to your spiritual journey. We intend to help that journey through a number of ways - a Blog with reading materials and dialogue, Life Group "go deeper" curriculum, and annual Creekside Leadership Summits where we will pour into those that put themselves on the line in leadership and service here at Creekside. If you have been a follower of Jesus for a long time and feel like you are struggling with this issue, we want to hear from you. We think we can help sort through this in a way that reinvigorates your faith and helps all of us to benefit from your experience and depth." Dan Murray, Exec Pastor, Creekside Church

[Matt Lane]

I sometimes don't know what people mean by the saying "going deeper". I think many people don't even know how to go deeper because they have never been trained to study the Bible. It might be that using the phrase "going deeper" really doesn't accurately define what we are talking about. The Bible is good and very convicting. The Bible changes our lives because it is one of God's chosen avenues to speak to us. We don't worship the Bible anymore than we worship the church or the soup kitchen. The Bible points us to God, the church is an avenue to worship and to serve, and the soup kitchen is us displaying our love for God to others. What we are talking about is that through deeper studies of the Bible, we *should* develop authentic relationships with Jesus and a true yearning to live our lives as the Bible says we should.

It's sad...our churches are made up of bloated, anemic Christians on one hand and marasmus (extreme malnutrition and emaciation, especially in children) Christians on the other. The first are all puffed up with knowledge and traditions (saying someone has a lot of biblical knowledge means different things) and they have religion. They don't really do anything with their faith, maybe they never did. The other group really has very little biblical knowledge, even though some may say or think they do. When stressed just a little, these people crumble and break. They are the chaff that blows away in the wind. The first may not blow away but they are more like a big rock...big and heavy and a help to no one.

Both groups are spiritually sick but it is sometimes hard to see. Just because I serve doesn't make me a better Jesus follower. God is not appeased by us doing good things. Many people live better lives than Christians yet they are going to hell. We are sinners by nature and not righteous by nature. We don't have a propensity to do right. We don't have the ability to honor God by default. So for me the formula (reduced down) goes like this: true biblical knowledge + serving = God honoring, Jesus loving actions. On the flip side, little biblical knowledge + serving = self-serving, me loving actions. In both formulas do others get served? Yep. Can Jesus' love still be felt by others even if it is disingenuous? I think so. Even Paul says that he was happy that Christ was preached even though it was not in the right spirit (Phil 1:15-20). So I guess what I am saying is that we can lift of the name of Jesus and sin at the same time.

The point to all of this is that while many people use the "going deeper" issue as an excuse to leave a church or to attack people, we do need to be teaching people "how to fish" rather than just giving them the bottom line of scripture. I don't think anyone is saying to not teach people but I don't hear much emphasis on it either. Teaching people how to study and apply should be part of our DNA and it must be modeled by pastors from the pulpit. If we don’t teach people how to study the Bible we are enabling people to be spiritually immature and re-enforces this thought that the only biblical instructions I get or need are from the guy up front. This fallacy is entrapping and dangerous to the church and continues the trend of training generation upon generation of biblically ignorant people.

[J.Hoeft]

Hi Tim, great blog that creates great responses......Maybe a better word instead of "deeper" is "broader"? Maybe Christians are discovering new ways of interpeting the Bible that are exciting,relevant to the worlds problems and much broader and richer (read Mclarens books, or Martoia's) than the "old ways" and they simply want "more" from their church?(is that really such a bad thing after all?) The Church should never be discouraged or defensive by people wanting and demanding more from it.......especially since that is percisley how many of the mega churches were birthed anyway.....they (the church) perhaps should listen very carefully.....

[Craig Yoder]

This has been a huge cry of frustration in my life! I couldn't agree more! It has been what I call a "spiritual pet-peeve" of mine. I have heard those phrases so much and I can honestly say that most of the time, I have wondered if it is a cop out by this person or these persons to not apply the Word of God to their lives. Take the simple call of Jesus to love the Lord with all your soul, and all your mind, and all your strength. Then love your neighbor as yourself. Honestly with just those two things alone, we have more than we can handle in knowing the heart of God and applying it to our lives. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out! Often I can hear these pleas to go deeper and I often see no fruit in their lives. I could write a book about this, so I apologize for my soap box. Thank you for sharing these quotes. It is nice to know that I am not the only one with this frustration with the "go deeper" crowd. Proverbs 21:3 NIV - "To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice."

[Steve Miller]

We visited GCC during our personal struggle for "what's it all about?". It was the weekend that Mark Beeson spoke about the people at the table that he prepared for and the infamous high (I) chair. When he said that people that constantly fed at the table, but never pushed back to serve became Pharisees and followed that with his "I" chair tantrum - so many familiar faces at our church flashed through my mind after both examples. It was enlightening and depressing at the same time. It wasn't too many months later that we came to GCC for good.

But when I consider our past, I also accept that it is ultimately leadership in any body that sets that table and chooses to cater to the high chair or ignore those that sit in it. I meet a lot of wonderful church leaders at WIred Churches that have a passion to grow their ministry, but I am not sure that all of them grasp the significance of the cultural change that may be neccessary to become a mission effective Church. That's why one of my constant prayers is for leaders that love Christ enough to truly love the flock and lay a bold vision before it.

[Paul T.]

I find both this post and the responses to this post very troubling because I think in both the problem posed and the answer given that the real issue is being neglected.

The issue on the frustrated member side has been addressed previously in other comments. Many of the people making this comment are only looking for more information about life with Jesus that can only serve to build up their own self-righteousness before God - they don't want to experience life transformation.

My greater concern is the tone that I hear coming from those of us who are "more enlightened" and seem to have all the answers. To paraphrase, "If only these self-righteous, over-fed people would get off their backsides and begin doing something then they would see the light and regain their footing on the road to spiritual maturity!" As if to say that the mark of a spiritually mature Christian is one who is serving God and others. I have seen too many Christians who judge their own (and everyone else's)relationship with God, based on their service (or performance)for God.
The spiritually mature Christian is one who's heart is deeply in love with Jesus, who marvels at the beauty of our Savior and what He has done for us. He (or she) is one who is compelled to give his life away for the gospel, not because of any external, human pressure, but because he can do nothing else because of his love for his God.
The spiritually mature Christian is one who seeks out information about Jesus, not so he can pad his knowledge base and learn another truth to practice and be self righteous about, but because he is so in love with this Jesus and wants to learn more about Him and understand His unfathomable love and grace in new and profound ways.
Here is the challenge to me. If I evaluate my spiritual maturity based on how I am performing in service ministries, I am doing pretty well. If I evaluate my spiritual maturity based on my heart's cry for Jesus, I still have a long way to go! And that's OK, because I not only have the rest of my life to explore the riches of God's grace and mercy; I have eternity as well!

[Michelle Wegner]

Sounds like another great book idea! It seems like there is a lot of passion and energy about this topic. I'll gladly co-author the book with you! I'm keeping a log of funny things people have said to me and Rob about why "mega-churches" are not "deep".

[JB]

My take is that it is a church paradigm problem / issue. Very few take Eph 4 seriously and recognize that it is the role of church leadership (and the gatherings they create)to equip the saints to do the work of the minsitry.

We are event-addicted and reduce ministry to what happens in the walls of our campuses and buildings.

What if we saw are leadership and our gatherings as a chance to equip and deepen our people so they can be light and salt in the World they influence....

What if our assimilation processes became bigger than "let us help you find your spiritual gift...so you can help us do church"...what if we truly equipped people to influence their families, neighborhoods and places of work..

What if we called and equipped people to be evangelists and disciple makers rather than people who help us pull off Sunday mornings...

What if the church truly did train leaders, evangelists and disciple makers rather than farm that out to para-church institutions (seminaries).

What if we trained people to be the church, not just do church...

Of course if we did that...and we unleashed people to actually influence the areas they live, work and play...we'd lose "control" and our justification for mega staffs, 40 acres and multi million dollar sound systems and smoke machines...so let's reduce the adventure of journeying with Christ to invest and invite, show up, park cars and give...

[Steve Miller]

Exactly JB - but the church I came from didn't have mega anything including huge sound systems or smoke machines and it didn't do much to equip people either unless you count consistent attendance at service and Sunday school. But it did pay close attention to the long time pewsitter who grumbled whenever the church attempted to do something new. Here at GCC, we have a major commitment to the inner city of South Bend and it is growing. We work with Feed The Children on a consistent basis and have a serious commitment to expanding the church in India. And the cool thing is that many of these efforts are spearheaded by volunteer leaders getting guidance from staff. And members like me have the opportunity to participate each and every month. We just had a men's retreat with incredible teaching and sharing. Reading the Word and prayer is something we are constantly challenged to do because our journey must be with Him.

I think the frustration you read here is not spiritual smugness nor self righteousness (at least I hope not). The greatest joy the past two years for me has been the realization that this is a life journey 24/7. My life is not segmented into church guy, work guy and home guy. It is all one. Why it took 20 plus years to really figure that out is my problem, but I believe a lot of folks have experienced the same sense of failure in their church, be it staff or lay person. Jesus didn't say if you want to follow me, come to the temple each week and study the scripture. Unfortunately, many churches leave it there and don't know how to build upon it.

[Matt Lane]

Check out Clayton KIng's blog:

claytonking.com/blog/?navPage=blog

and specifically:

DANGERS FOR THE YOUNG LIONS

5. Theological Ignorance - I have heard this one so many times…”Don’t bore me with theology, let’s get busy reaching people for Jesus!” Sure. Sounds cute and epic. But that is the fastest way to build a really big church fast, and then watch it fall apart even faster. All that we do is based on theological beliefs. We must be as deep as we are wide.

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I think that says it all.

[J.Hoeft]

just got back to this blog.....IMHO, the JB person nailed it....great post.

[J.Hoeft]

Hey Tim, found this on going deep...

http://velocityvortx.wordpress.com/

[bryan stupar]

i believe there is another reason why sheep say ,"I'm not getting fed". to understand why, I'm gonna shift metaphor's from "starving sheep" to "dying gardens". allow me to explain.

If someone sprayed "roundup" (thats weed poison) on my garden and i was unaware of it, regardless how often i "water it", "fertilize it", "tend to it" and "care for it" IT WIL NEVER GROW.....

why? cuz its poisoned!

i wonder how many times are sheep claiming "i ain't gettin feed" but the reality is that they CAN'T get fed cuz there is "bitterness" in their heart towards the pastor or the leader who is teaching. Maybe he didn't say "hi" or acknowlege them when they walked by, a crime of unforgivable proportions.
...just some further thoughts on the "feeding frenzy".

www.bryanstupar.blogspot.com

[Paul The Apostle...you know from the Bible]

Hey, why didn't someone way back in my time tell me I didn't have to go around and teach EVERYONE the Bible from the time of my conversion until my martyrdom? I didn't know we could as pastors just kick back and tell the sheep, "Go gaze and let me gaze!"