[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Tim Stevens, Jim Tomberlin. Jim Tomberlin said: RT @timastevens "Church as we have always done it will find increasingly fewer participants." Disagree? http://bit.ly/ciiEqs [...]

I think everyone will be slow to shift, not just the church.
I think we see this throughout time here, more specifically in the last 2 years how it has taken people a lot of time to shift from the traditional way of spending money, taking out loans, etc…
The church naturally falls behind, maybe it is because they are afraid of change or upsetting those that "like it the way it is." But it does seem that not just the church, but the country as a whole can be afraid of change.

I just wonder if the church is ready for a drastic change in the way they do staffing and finances? Seeing what is happening with the Euro and other currency I wonder if the dollar starts to fall will church staff be willing to work other jobs to make a living and "serve" at the church instead of having it as its full time job? I think that is the big shift that will be happening. But of course I could be wrong.

Great insights Tim! As a big fan of Seth Godin, I think that the problem isn't so much with shifting paradigms but with how churches and their members see themselves. I know there is pushback happening against the happy feel good trend of Christianity-lite (as I personally think there ought to be) but the problem is with church (by way of their leadership) is a sense of institutionalism. Institutes don't react quickly; they flail about and die a long, slow death (see traditional media outlets evening news, NY Times etc.) Tribes are vibrant and dynamic and adaptable and can do these things even in the context of institutional idea (the Gospel). Jesus had a tribe and sparked a radical movement. I think it comes down to churches needing to be more tribal, less institutional.

Non-sarcasm here. I don't think of the UMC as traditional at all. I think of them as theologically non-traditional, liberal and progressive in areas I don't want to be progressive in. I actually view them as innovative as well, just again in areas that don't require innovation…

This has become an area of concern for me as I try to navigate how to work together with multiple denominations and views as well as the age old argument of do I stay and fight or do I jump ship…

I know this isn't where your post was headed so if it dies on the vine here, that is cool.

Thanks for sharing Ed's thoughts. Change is inevitable I don't understand why some organizations are healthy with this truth and others are so resistant with it. I believe in general terms , the church is slow to change, yes. This is evident with it's response to cultural things with how people live(music, social media etc) some churches have taken advantage of these mediums to spread the message of hope faster while others are still using "older" mediums to speak the same message. Change is hard for people who resist thinking outside the box. It all starts with thinking and thinking usually comes from the top down in an organization, look at Apple for example.

I think the trends are just trends and don't have anything to really do with Christianity but they're fun little diversions.

I'm living this as a staff pastor of one of the UMC's largest churches (Asbury in Tulsa). The big question for our church is what is the relationship between legacy and innovation. There is slowly a blossoming of understanding that we are going to have to innovate our thinking and our practices, but we don't want to leave behind the legacy of past generations of people who have made our church what it is. No surprise, the legacy idea wins out over the innovation idea about 90% of the time for the simple reason that legacy is just much easier and cheaper.

People like innovative church because it's more "fun" and "interesting" and "entertaining."

Tom
btsbecker@aol.com

Tim

You ask…
“will the church be slow to shift?”

Depends on which church we’re talking about?
1 – “The Church of God?”
2 – the church of man?

1 – “The Church of God.” aka = the body of Christ, sons of God, “Led” by the Spirit.
Will do just fine, hearing “His Voice,” following Jesus, and being taught by Jesus.

Col 1:18
Jesus, He is the head of the body, (the ekklesia, the called out one’s)
“The Church.”

John 10:27
My sheep **hear my voice,** and I know them, and they follow me:

John 18:37
… Every one that is of the truth **heareth my voice.**

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be **ALL taught of God.**

Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to **hear his voice,**
that **he might instruct thee:**

Psalms 32:8
I will **instruct thee** and **teach thee**
in the way which thou shalt go: I will **guide thee** with mine eye.

2 – Now, the church of man, the church of baptist, the church of methodist, etc.,
the 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations and Denominations.
They have been pretty shifty for centuries. Doesn’t really matter how they shift now.

Did Jesus shed His Blood for a building, an institution, and organization,
a denomination, or a corporation, building towers and making a name for themselves?

Should we call a corporation – “the Church of God?” AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear my voice; **
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

In “The Church of God” there is – “ONE” Fold – “ONE” Shepherd – “ONE” Voice.

Thank you Jesus

P.S.

You can be"the Church."

BUT, You can't do church.

Doing church is NOT in the Bible.

In the Bible……
NO one ever went “To Church.”
NO one ever joined “A Church,”
NO one ever applied for “Church” membership.
NO one ever “Tithed” to a “Church.”
NO one ever brought their friends to “Church.”
NO buildings with Steeples and crosses called “Church.”
NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.

Amen

I think the key to all of this is being more personal. In the age of Facebook where privacy is zero and tradition is dead, the only way for the Gospel or a church to reach anyone is to reach them personally. This might be a growth group; inviting someone to coffee or dinner; providing clothes or food to those in need; or simply sharing your life to someone you meet so they can see who Jesus is. I think a blog post may now have more impact than a 30 minute message from a pastor. Tough for the traditional churches, true, but an exciting time for those who are willing to meet and talk with someone new. Maybe we need more teams and less leaders.

justopenthebook – great idea…

"Maybe we need more teams and less leaders."

Didn't Jesus, in Mat 23:10 KJV, tell **His disciples** “NOT” to call themselves
“Master / Leaders,” for you have “ONE” “Master / Leader” “The Christ?”

King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.

The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.

Today's English Version –
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.

Jesus told **His disciples** not to be called "leaders" and none did.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant

**His Disciples** all called themselves “servants.”
None called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.

If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a "leader"
or thinks they are a "leader;"

Are they **His Disciple? Are they a "Disciple of Christ?"

Why isn’t what Jesus said important?

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear my voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?

Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus.

davepatchin

I have seen the dangers of "Titles," and “Position,” of **Today’s** "Pastor/Leader."
“Spiritual Abuse” for both the "leader" and those “being led.”
IMO – The “Title” “Pastor/Leader” is very, very, dangerous for both.

In my experience…
No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much of a servant, eventually…

Pastor/Leader = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always

I'm not not new to "ministering healing" to those who have been “Abused”
by those who assumed the “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader."

Folks who have been **burnt,** ** burnt out,** ** kicked out,**
and **crawled out** of "The Religious System" most call “church.”
With it's leaders, submission to authority, tithes and offerings,
and other unbiblical "heavy weights" put on folks shoulders.

I also spend time with pastors,
"so called leaders," who can't do it anymore.

Trying to please the denominational leaders,
the congregation and it's leaders, his family,
and of course Jesus.
Who is often relegated to last place. Hmmm?

Serving so many masters, that's tough; Yes?

Preaching every week… and it better be good, being the CEO,
the team leader, councilor, marrying, burying, smiley face. etc. etc.

If "Pastor/Leaders" (as we see them today) are of God?
He's not taking very good care of His “Pastor/Leaders.”

This is info from a website helping burned out Pastors.
http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/Healing___He…

• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.

Think there might be a problem with ““Pastor/Leaders?”
70% of pastors are depressed or burnt out.
70% Don't have a close friend. Hmmm?

That's who is running the show. “Pastors/Leaders?”
77% who say they don’t have a good marriage. Hmmm?
That's who is "Spiritually Abusing" God's sheep.

1600 pastors a month, that's 19,000 a year, leave or are pushed out. Wow!!!
That's a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain, abuse.
That’s 1600 families a month suffering “Abuse” from a “Corrupt Religious System.”

Why don’t the denominations and seminaries, who are training these “Pastor/Leaders"
tell these young wannabees, before they spend all that money for a degree,
that they are entering a very dangerous profession? “Pastor/Leader."
Dangerous for the "Pastor/Leaders" and their families. Yes?

Some more statistics. This is serious business. Yes?
http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statis…

# 80% of pastors' spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
# 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…………..Many pastor's children do not attend church now
……………because of what the church has done to their parents.
# 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
# 33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.

And you’re upset with me for challenging what you believe?
I thought I was being quite respectful considering what I and others have
experienced because of “Pastor/Leaders." “Spiritual Abuse” is not pretty – is it?

This “Corrupt Religious System” of **Today** eats up and spits out the wounded.

Maybe Tim can consider putting these statistics on his website? For all to see? Oy Vey!!!
Yea… so the “Pastor/Leaders" and those being “Led” can know what's really going on.

Hmmm? Today's “Pastor/leader,” is this a “Title” or "Position" in the scriptures?

In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?

Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus

davepatchin

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thank you for not being upset.
Your desire to “deepen the discussion” is much appreciated.

These are important and sensitive topics for “The Body of Christ,” “The Church.”

If you’ll notice, the comments were about **Today’s** “Pastor/Leaders”
A “Title” and “Position” Not found in the scriptures.
NOT about biblical elders.

In my experience…

“Titles” become “Idols.”
“Pastors” become “Masters.”

The “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader” comes with “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power, Profit, Prestige, Glory, Honor, Recognition, Reputation, etc.
“Idols” of the heart, Ezek 14:1-11, not easy to lay down and walk away from.

All those things Jesus spoke against. Yes?

Jesus humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
and took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8

And to be a biblical elder/bishop there were qualifications.
Why did Paul give qualifications if not important?

An overseer, elder, “Must be” blameless…

That “must be” is the same Greek word as …You “must be” born again. John 3:17
Seems to be a small word but very important.

It’s Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Computer – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.

Bishops “must be.” Hmmm? Very important or…?

Blameless… How important is this word?

Webster’s – Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.

Synonyms – faultless, guiltless, innocent, irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.

Computer – that cannot be – reprehended, rebukable, reprovable,
cannot find fault, not open to censure, irreproachable.

Strongs #423 – anepileptos – inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.

This is only one of many qualifications.

1 – **blameless** — unrebukeable, without fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
3 – rules well his own house — have a family, children.
4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
8 – no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10 – not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
11 – not soon angry — not prone to anger.
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.
13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

And their children must qualify also…
“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”

15 – faithful — believing, one who trusts in God's promises.
16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
………an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
17 – unruly — disobedient.

That’s a tuff list of qualifications. Yes?

If someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus NOT without fault?

How many, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these qualifications,
can see themselves as blameless, without fault and thus qualify to be an overseer, elder?

The Bible talks about bishops, and elders. And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can you have one without the other?

When your “elder/bishop/leader/teacher/pastor” doesn’t qualify – now what?

Ever try pointing that out to a Senior Pastor? Ouch!

Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
He told “His Disciples” NOT to be called “Leader.”

Jesus… My Lord and My God…