Comments on: We Have a Statistical Problem

By: Tim Stevens

Tim Stevens — Fri, 27 May 2011 16:04:58 +0000

It was exactly a year ago I wrote this post, and still agree 100%. Since then, we’ve completely overhauled our ministry focus and vision toward reaching those who will never “come to us.” It’s much too early to know if it’s going to work–but there are thousands of people now focused more outward than they ever were before.

By: Len Wilson

Len Wilson — Fri, 27 May 2011 02:38:12 +0000

Tim, I'd like to know where you are on this issue, a year after you wrote this post. I have had many of the same concerns over the last couple of years, and it is one reason why I have left Midnight Oil, my ministry to help churches with creative worship. I still believe in the basic idea behind engaging the culture using the culture's forms. But yet…

By: Speedlinking – June 4, 2010 « Thoughts of Resurrection

Speedlinking – June 4, 2010 « Thoughts of Resurrection — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:02:22 +0000

[...] We Have a Statistical Problem in the church. How do you respond? [...]

By: In Case You Missed It – May 29 | Technically Speaking

In Case You Missed It – May 29 | Technically Speaking — Sat, 29 May 2010 12:10:07 +0000

[...] conventional thinking, Tim Stevens poses a very thought provoking idea in his post on how churches have a statistical problem. The coming decade is going to require some different thinking and for some churches to take some [...]

By: The Shrinking 40% (by Tim Stevens) « Mount Ararat Blog

The Shrinking 40% (by Tim Stevens) « Mount Ararat Blog — Thu, 27 May 2010 14:42:37 +0000

[...] didn’t think about them. I’m a statistics guy, and it is the statistics (that I talked about earlier) which are waking me up to a missional problem. Now that I’m aware of the Growing 60% –I can [...]

By: Brice Bohrer

Brice Bohrer — Thu, 27 May 2010 14:22:14 +0000

I am not sure God called us to be effective. Just called us to go and do. Effective is up to Him. Be obedient. Have a model. Have a great model. Evaluate it, poke it, make it better…constantly. I am all for this. But above all obedience is all that is required.

Be still and know that I am God.

By: Bruno D.

Bruno D. — Thu, 27 May 2010 13:56:02 +0000

Nick, I totally agree with you. The challenge is being intentional about being both… Just like in other parts aspects of our lives, we can choose to let things happen by accident, or be intentional ( or on mission) about it.. Your illustration about them not being mutually exclusive was great!

By: JamesBrett

JamesBrett — Thu, 27 May 2010 12:53:43 +0000

i have to run. but i’ll try to answer the other two questions a little later this evening (my evening, your mid-day). i am really enjoying the conversation, by the way. thank you, nick.

By: JamesBrett

JamesBrett — Thu, 27 May 2010 12:52:09 +0000

nick, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and not writing me off as a troublemaker.

i have not been burned by churches or a church. i’ve worked in/for several.

i also have seen people invited to church who came to know Christ and to become more like him. but many of them were asked to change some of that in them which was cultural and not in opposition to the gospel or Christ himself. and i’ve seen many who have flourished in their new church culture. i just think we missed out on reaching others in their culture because of that.

i think we’d have been better off to have helped them become obedient disciples where they were, so they were more apt to lead others to Christ — and probably to start their own small church, which would represent Christ in their culture better than my church did / could.

i don’t find any evidence that non-God-fearers were invited to christian gatherings in the new testament, and yes, i think i find it unlikely that this happened often. the assembly doesn’t seem to be primarily (or even secondarily, or tertiarily — is that a word) about non-Christians and/or evangelism.

By: JamesBrett

JamesBrett — Thu, 27 May 2010 12:46:13 +0000

and i don’t mean to make it sound as if i believe attractional churches are not indeed churches — or anything of that sort. i simply don’t think it’s a sustainable or reproducible form of evangelism. nor do i see it modeled in scripture. that doesn’t mean i believe it’s wrong. i simply believe it unwise.