I believe it is certainly possible to disciple non-christian people. You do life with them, you spend time with them, talk to them and eventually work the gospel in the conversation. Any way around it, if you lie your life as a follower of Christ natural discipleship happens whether you intend for it to or not.

I think that Peter, James, John, Andrew, Bart and the fellas would say YES!

My understanding of discipleship relates to development of professing Christians or believers – so can't understand how a n0n-believer can be "discipled"; they can be "evangelized". Are we talking semantics?

Aren't we supposed to be disciples to non-Christians? We are to help the lost be found.

You stole my answer. Great minds think….
Jesus was the first to try this. Worked out pretty good, but clumsy at first.

I say keep feeding me this water, for it slakes my thirst.

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This post was mentioned on Twitter by timastevens: Is it possible to disciple a non-Christian? http://bit.ly/cekY2n...

I also agree, it is so much more than teaching or training those who have converted but conversion and discipleship working hand in hand. A great book that covers this topic well = "Embodying Our Faith"http://www.amazon.com/o/asin/B00336EODW/3–20/

my initial reactions (i’ll gladly be open to correcting) are that discipleship necessarily begins before “(full) conversion,” but that, if an individual doesn’t know he/she’s being discipled, he/she’s not. i’d call that being a good influence on someone. or sharing with them good habits and life skills. it seems that a disciple is actively seeking to learn from Jesus.

Jesus words in the great commission are to make disciples, baptize them, and teach them to be obedient. i’m not positive the order there is important, but it seems to be.

i think part of the key is looking at salvation not as a single point in time, but rather as a process. my guess is discipleship occurs during that entire process.

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Tim Stevens, Craig L. Adams, R Scott Wiley, Leaders Village, Kenny Kelly and others. Kenny Kelly said: Is it possible to disciple a non-Christian? http://bit.ly/cekY2n /via @timastevens//Very interesting read [...]

I say: "Beautiful."

Let's pose these questions: Were the "disciples" of Christ being evangelized or discipled? Were they given God's Holy Spirit when they were with Christ or were they affected by the Spirit of God (in) Christ? Weren't they "unbelievers" before the day of Pentecost? Are not all those around us "unbelievers" until they have some reason to become believers, due to the presence of God's Spirit (us) around them?

I concur, oh wise one. Make disciples, not just converts. I usually ask crowds I speak to "When did the 11 disciples (12 minus Judas) become Christians according to our evangelical understanding of what that means?" It's a good question, with no certain answer (except, well, Pentecost…we could safely say they were "in" once they got indwelt by the Holy Spirit, right?). So what were they before then? Disciples. And what did Jesus ask us to go do in the Great Commission? Oh, that's right…make disciples. Our narrow focus on the conversion moment (evangelicals, at least, in the past 150 years or so) has made the commission all about a decision. Check the box and move on. We've made discipleship an eight week follow up program available on DVD. And we wonder why there are so many converts and so few followers of Jesus.

Ok…I'll go buy the book now.

Preach it, baby.

Really good stuff on the ping pong here. I agree with the authors. Amazing stuff happens when we focus on the Love and kindness of Christ, most people agree on that stuff they start to throw there walls up when you apply "pre" anything. Like Being Saved (Pre), deep knowledge of the word(Pre)…Anyone who knows love and see love is of God because God IS love, right?
….Ping, pong..

All we are saying is that we ought to reframe evangelism within the broader context of the great commission–to make disciples. It is not saying we would not share the good news, it is the relationship that allows us to share good news.

This reminds me of the Karate Kid; Mr. Miyagi was teaching even when Daniel didn’t realize it.
-wax on wax off

I held no firm views when I started at GCC, just a lot of questions. Knowing the mission of GCC you already know the answer.

I completely concur. "Discipleship" amongst unbelievers is the best way to live out the gospel. If we take the time to build relationships with those outside of the church we can better affect their lives and ultimately lead them to Christ. These women might never set foot in a church, but by reaching out to them, caring about their lives, the Hirsch' have paved the way for these women to see Christ in action and discover His pure love for them.

the verb form of Disciple:
–verb (used with object)
1. to convert into a disciple.
2. to teach; train.

This reminds me of the article I’m working on at the moment. It’s about how we try to oversystematize Christian experience. The article came out of a discussion with a friend who said that ‘without Scripture we couldn’t know God’. Actually I thought, that overstates the case. Abraham had no Bible. What he learned about God was direct. I’m realising that God doesn’t care much about an orthodox chronology. Whether we’re seekers, stalwarts or leavers the call to discipleship stays in the present tense.

[...] Is it Possible to Disciple a Non-Christian? [...]

So it's about works then, (e.g. learning to walk like a Christian) and not faith?

Last year I was at an African Summit. A lady from Africa came up to talk to us. The room was full of Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists and she asked please do not come to Africa. YOU could hear a pin drop on the room. She went on by saying leave your doctrine view points back in the US. We don't need to see nor hear your fights on your theologies back and forth while there are people dieing! If you come, come as Jesus of the Gospel came. With welcome mercy, grace and love. It takes time and you may not see the end result. Reaming doctrine down the throat does not make Christ Followers.

Negative. See Matthew 28:19, making disciples involves baptizing and teaching, which is conversion…

This thread, and the book it references, is asking, "Can we disciple non-believers". The answer is no. The only thing you can teach them that they can actually grasp without being saved is morality, which is only one part of our walk with Christ. Once they come to saving faith, the bible says that the Holy Spirit endwells them and leads them to all truth.
Should we be a good example and witness to non-believers…of course. Evangelize them in the Name of Christ…of course. Make disciples….absolutely. But making disciples STARTS with them knowing Christ, its not a step along the way.

I have to disagree with an earlier post… a disciple is not one who is being converted, a disciple is one who has already chosen. The term "disciple" comes from the Jewish model where a student would choose a Rabbi to follow and then would learn everything the Rabbi did and said and taught, subscribing to his teaching completely. To say that we can disciple someone who doesn't believe in Jesus is like saying that you are committed to American autos but own a Toyota. You would first have to accept that the Rabbi who is teaching you is actually believable. Demonstrating how we live out our walk with Christ to others is a completely seperate issue and is not really applicable to this conversation. That would be about us, not about the person who doesn't yet know Christ. (Continued…)

Why not? WWJD?

Making disciples or making converts.
One fine point on this discussion has to do with our modern idea of conversion. I think it confuses the point.
We were told by Jesus to "make disciples." We see Paul admonishing people in his epistles to "follow him as he follows Christ" or to "follow his example in following Christ."
this is about showing, not telling. I think that far too often we teach the idea, rather than showing the practice. Salvation becomes disconnected from discipleship and you end up with a theoretical theology which produces very little action (or disciples). This comes from the notion that if you have the idea, you have everything.
But Jesus stressed action. The Apostles stressed that actions resulting from faith. Hebrews has a whole chapter dedicated to that notion ("by faith 'so-and-so did such-and-such). Discipleship is a matter of action resulting from faith.
So, when it comes to the not yet reconciled, I think our best "tract" is living out what Jesus says. We become a "sales demo" of Jesus. Just the same way that Jesus "did only what He saw the Father do,"
We represent Jesus by emulating Him (the very substance of discipleship). We make disciples by practicing discipleship and mentoring those around us.

The ALPHA ministry started changing my thoughts on this subject about six years ago. So much so that I changed my life purpose. It starts out, "To equip seekers to be all they can be in Christ …" So I decided that, yes, discipleship begins the first time we speak to a non-believer. We start with that first conversation building into someone's life that will last forever.
That's my read on it!
Blessings,
Dave

To be a disciple is to be a student (props to JamesBrett & Jayson). To be discipled, the student has to be following someone. Our current assumptions about discipleship have been that those who are more mature in Christ are teaching/showing/modeling a less mature believer how to grow as a follower/student/disciple of Jesus.

It is possible to disciple someone who is not a believer, but the definition of disciple demands an object… a rabbi, if you will. If we are not discipling people to be followers of Jesus, then at best we're asking them to learn something (morals, compassion, life-lessons, etc.) from us.

So if we are to disciple people without first introducing them to Jesus (hopefully with that goal in sight, at least) then we'll need to be comfortable taking on that role as a life-coach… as their rabbi. It's an interesting thought.

I find it easier to think of it as simply loving people and then at the appropriate time, introduce them to Jesus, the source of my ability to love them.

I agree with Jayson…"Discipleship", from a technical standpoint, is about training a Christ follower to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and integrate the Faith into all areas of life…so no, I would NOT say that it's possible to "disciple" a non-believer, from a technical/theological standpoint. However, is it possible–and even preferable and encouraged–to reach out to non-believers right where they're at, and to use creative and practical ways to evangelize them–ie bring them to a saving relationship with Christ? YES!

Without the evangelism/conversion aspect, though, it's too easy to stop at humanism and morality–but not Christ. This is not discipleship.

Grace and Peace,

Dave

reading Michael Wilkins "Following the Master" is a great nuance to this discussion. I would say that if we believe that everyone is being "spiritually formed" whether they've been converted or not (a la Willard?), then why couldn't discipleship be what Alan & Deb are describing? This is part of the other great discussion: what (if there is one) is the difference between discipleship and spiritual formation?

"Untamed" was great reading – thanks Alan & Deb.

Thanks Tim! Great thoughts. Just finished a short seminar series on this very topic: (w/Japanese translation)
http://jksermons.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/discipl…

I've been giving versions of this seminar throughout Japan, where less than 0.25% of the population attends a Protestant Church, and have realized that this bifurcation of discipleship/evangelism is really hurting both disciple and evangelism here. Hopefully I'll have something in print soon enough, thanks for the other resources everyone~ Many blessings from Japan, Joe