I personally think a sign of a good book, article or post is when it gets you worked up, inspired, agitated or just plain mad. There was one such article this morning on CatalystSpace. It was written by Tim Schraeder (a friend from Chicago). You can read the original article here.
Tim started the article saying he’s worked for 4 different churches over the past 10 years. Then he lists 10 things that drive him crazy about working for a church. I’ve worked for one church for 15 years, so I thought I’d add some perspective with my thoughts about his list:
- We are really good at burning people out - Not in my experience. I work at a place where we are encouraging each other to take vacation, go home to your family, leave that task for another day. Yes, I’ve seen people burn out, but because of their personal choices.
- We focus way too much on what we don’t have – I agree, but I think it comes from a good place. We have this God-sized vision of what we know is possible for our community–so it’s easy to wish for more so we could have a greater impact. We have to keep this in check and be grateful for what God has given us.
- We are afraid of change – Probably true in many churches. At Granger, people who don’t like change leave after a couple years because they get change-fatigue. Those who love change get antsy when we aren’t changing quickly enough.
- We use “let me pray about it” as an excuse to get out of making decisions – never done this and never experienced this from someone else.
- We LOVE meetings – I don’t love meetings, but I do see them as a way to love on people, connect relationally, shift culture, recast vision, set priorities, gauge progress and more. Poorly run meetings are no fun. So if your day is filled with those–stop going.
- We try to do way too much – Agreed.
- We try to be something we’re not – I think it takes awhile for a young church to figure out what they are–and what they are not. Until then, it’s all about experimentation, and I applaud that.
- We spend too much time looking at other churches - Disagree. I absolutely LOVE learning what other churches are doing to uniquely accomplish their mission in their community. I think most churches get stuck staring at their navel and spend way too little time considering different ways of ministry. I’m down on competition. Down on comparisons. Up on learning!
- We worry about people leaving -We’ve never been accused of that, but have many times heard the opposite: “You spend too much time figuring out how to serve the people coming in the front door and not enough time looking at why they are going out the back door.”
- We don’t feel trusted – That is a hiring problem. Hire the wrong people and you will never trust them. You will establish a long list of policies and rules to try to keep them operating in the lines. Every time someone steps out, you make another rule. I have a better idea. Let’s work with people we trust and get rid of all the rules. That’s the world I choose to live in.
I’d love to hear your thoughts about Schraeders original list–or my response.
21 Comments
I liked Tim's original post a lot.
I like your response to it too.
I think your response really amplifies how incredibly different Granger is when compared to other churches.
I would say your experience over the past 15 years is unique because of who you are, the position(s) you hold or (more likely) the organization you work for. I more identify with the original list from my 5 years on staff. I identify more with your list here in the secular job market. It's sad, but I have more margin, less pressure, less stress and work about 15% less hours for a publically traded company than I did at the church.
Especially #10 – that just isn't true, it's a leadership problem.
I'm with you Tim. What makes for a bad experience working at a church is focusing on the negative all the time. While I do agree with some of the things in the original post, why not turn it around and put it in an encouraging context?
#8 – I agree that hearing what other churches are doing is exciting. But I interpret the original post as "We spend too much time looking at other churches and either trying to emulate them (when it doesn't fit) or moan about how we can't be like them (for whatever reason)." Too many times churches look at others and want to be that or do that without evaluating the reasons behind doing it.
Tim,
I appreciate and agree with your viewpoint. I think that a lot of this comes down to the vision of the church, and each person's individual "buy-in" to said vision. No one likes meetings for meetings, but you are right, we need many times to have that cohesiveness that comes from everyone getting on the same page. The people who get "killed" by that are often those who don't get what we are trying to do as a whole. They might see how this is negatively impacting them, without realizing that you have to bring your team along to be successful. Sometimes, teams need meetings that last longer than 7 minutes.
The other big difference that I saw from yours to his viewpoints is a question of identity. Those who garner their identity from the work they do instead of their relationship with Christ first, family second, ministry (personal) third, and then job that they do (we pastors like to lump 3 and 4 together too often) will be the ones who burn out, get week- knees when decisions are necessary, take it personally when people leave etc… Identity is critical.
Again, this is a leadership issue IMO. Pastors are not necessarily good leaders and I think all too often, the importance of leading the staff is overshadowed by pastoring the body. Both are needed, and both should be world-class. Faltering in either will undo the church – either from attendance on Sunday or from within through employment issues.
May we not gloss over the importance of leadership in creating a thriving staff culture that spills over to Sunday morning and touches the ministries of the other six days.
Tim, thanks for your response to Tim Schraeder's blog post! I love dialogue & discussing the two sides of an issue, I think you learn better that way. As proverbs says "The first to present his case seems right, until another comes forward and questions him" Prov 18:17. Unfortunately, it seems really hard to do that without arguing or fighting. I appreciate your response!
it really comes down to the individual institution. there are many churches that take advantage of people and there are possibly churches that nurture and protect their people. i have only heard of the latter, and experienced the former. some churches (leadership really) are so insecure that they are constantly re-identifying themselves & switching stuff up. it's tough enough partnering with a new work, but it's tougher still partnering with a church that's been around 35 years and is still trying to be like the latest & greatest. this is prevalent and this wears the staff out. Not mentioned in the post is how tough it is working for a church when appearance is key: Have you ever had to turn down a volunteer with M.S. who wanted to greet at the front door because it may "offend" or it wasn't the "image/ first thing we want the people to see" upon arrival? that wasn't mentioned in the post, but that's the kind of stuff many staff members are dealing with. or the worship leader having to place the heavier less attractive singers to side stage so they aren't in the TV shots… what about the paid in peanuts community outreach pastor that is "encouraged" to redo the wardrobe (designer jeans & embroidered shirts)… while his children can't afford to go to band camp. image is stressing staff out too. IMAGE. that should be on the list;)
Tim S's post is another reminder for me of the unique environment at GCC. I think part of the difference for me was that until 10 years ago, I hadn't been part of any church since childhood, a gap of 20 years. I had no preconceptions of what church employment should/could be. I've been told many times that GCC is unique and I believe it.
Tim – I had a lot of the same thoughts when I first read his post. I was at the same church for 15 yrs and the environment was very similar to yours. I feel really strongly about your response to #10. As a church gets larger, we add more rules and policies to keep everything reigned in. We lose the fire that got us there in the first place.
Thanks for this post Tim. I hoped my post would spur on some good dialogue and it looks like it did!
Let me say from the outset I wasn't trying to at all be negative but offer some constructive criticism and food for thought. I believe in the Church and love working for one, and the points I brought out came from some of my own personal experience [not being a leader but just your average church staff member] and moreso from things I've observed and heard as I've connected with others who work at other churches.
I agree with what @dannyjbixby said… your post highlights the fact that Granger is a unique church.
I've learned so much from you and the team at Granger over the past few years and think there's a lot the church at-large can learn from all of you. You guys get it.
The sad truth is… most churches aren't like Granger. Most churches don't have the leadership, vision or values that you do. Churches and church staff are struggling and in many instances it's because of how they work or how they are organized. I'm glad these 10 things aren't red flags at Granger, but they definitely resonate with a larger audience of church workers. [The comments on my original post echo that.]
I believe in the Church and know it will continue to prevail in spite of all of us… my hope is that we can REWORK how we've been working and create a healthier working culture that more effectively advances the cause of Christ in our communities.
I agree with some of Schraeder's points and disagree with most. My biggest contention is that he says he has worked at four churches in ten years. That is 2.5 years per church. How can you critique leadership when you were only committed for 2.5 years? I know that there are probably reasons beyond my understanding and he has probably been wronged by people in church leadership in some way. But the church is supposed to be family and community – not a job we work for a couple years and then move on for the next opportunity.
I would just respect the critique of someone who has worked for 10 years at one church or 20 years at a couple spots. For the record, I have worked at two churches in 16 years of full-time ministry.
I loved your response here – fair and thoughtful with a pleasant touch of optimism.
Thanks, Eric.
For the record… 1 church was a 9 month discipleship training program; 2 were the church that I grew up attending and the church plant they started that I worked at for nearly six years; and most recently, Park, where I've been for three years.
it's strange that we would be so quick to judge longevity as more credible. the example of "longevity" was never given by Christ… quite the opposite actually. Same for the apostles. So i suppose we'd find ourselves wiser if we heard each man's perspective and take it as valid, whether we relate or not. I am a missionary. I have served at 5 churches in the last 12 years, this has enriched my understanding of common strengths & weakness within the Western church. I wouldn't dismiss a person's view as "isolated" if they've been serving in the same church for 12 straight years either. both views are respectable.
I have been at one church for twenty years now. Enjoyed the list and the responses and would have agreed with most of it at different times on the journey. I don't like meeting either, and I really try and avoid them. I am going to try and take some of your perspective on them being an opportunity to love people.
I am the Business Administrator at a mid-sized church out west and have been here about 4.5 years. I absolutely love my job, but I can definitely empathize with those feeling burned out. Especially in ministry areas such as pastors, youth, etc. I get pulled in many directions, but nothing like those staff members. One thing I think leads to burn out are the expectations of church members. Many expect perfection as if God created me as a church employee. I make mistakes and feel stress just like the rest of us.
[...] Tim Stevens talks about “10 Things That Drive (Someone Else) Crazy About Working For A Church.” [...]
the last point it's so true! thanks Tim your blog is a blessing to Mexico too!
[...] 10 Things that Drive (Someone Else) Crazy about Working For a Church – [Leading Smart] – Tim Stevens responds to Tim Schraeder’s list. [...]
Agree you with you tim, particularly #10. Not trusting others is a symptom of not trusting God. If God were good, he'd give you partners to help accomplish the mission he's given you (plural). I like your list *way* better.
I think Tim's post was very true.
I do think that your situation seems to be something that I have never experienced before.
I think that is why I tend to side with the original post of Tim's, it seems that Granger knows about these things that drive people crazy and so they focus on making sure that they care about each issue. But I have worked at a couple of churches and have experienced exactly what Tim Schraeder was talking about. Not saying that you are wrong, I just wish Granger was the not the exception to this all but more in the majority.