Frustrated
I’ll admit it…I’m frustrated. Having access to the giving records at the church is both a blessing and a curse. Often I see the giving of a single mom, or elderly widow, or young student–and I am astounded by the sacrifice of their giving. Or I see the unbelievable gifts coming from a business man who I know isn’t rich–and I see how it represents a life of priorities.
But the other side of the coin sometimes leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. I see the name of a strong leader who is giving of his or her time to make things happen in a ministry area–yet I find they give absolutely nothing to the work of Christ at Granger. Or I come across the giving report of a business person who is known to be doing very well–and they give far less than the elderly widow living on social security! Or I see the name of a leader who has petitioned me in the past for more dollars in a certain area–and then I see that they are contributing little to nothing to help us fund such ministry.
It’s frustrating. Not because the church needs their money or God can’t supply for our ministry needs without them. Rather, it’s frustrating because I know what they are missing. Whether you believe in the principle of tithing or not isn’t the issue. I think anyone could agree that God values a generous person–and that we are called to furthering His work here on earth. I believe God blesses generous people. I also believe God withholds blessing from people who are not generous. I hurt for people who select lifestyle choices above the blessing of God on their life.
But for today–I’m going to focus on the people who are giving generously. I wrote letters of thanks to several of them this week. They are the ones making it possible for thousands of people to meet Jesus, find hope, discover forgiveness and make a real impact on our community and around the world.
Posted by Tim Stevens | 55 comments
Stuart
Good post sir. I was taught, long before I became a christian by both my parents (one a Roman Catholic attender the other an agnostic) to be a giver. Giving was and is my nature.
I confess I struggle with the tithing question though I want to ask something else that isn't about tithing.
Two things …
1. You're a leader and you state you have access to the giving records. I perhaps understand the why you access but a. is it right that you do and b. do you ever do anything about the non-giver who can / should?
2. As a giver, I give of everything I am. Money is but the start of it. So my second question is this… is it ever right (as you see it) to not give of money when you are giving time, talent, petrol, skills, resources, etc which actually add to above and beyond what a person might give in cash terms?
Intrigued – I sure am.
Tim Stevens
1. We are told in scripture that where we put our money is a direct reflection of our hearts. As pastors, we are caring for the hearts of our people…so why remove one of the only indicators of a person's heart as we shepherd our people? And yes, these types of discoveries lead to conversation's — is everything okay? Are you going through a financial crisis? Do you still believe in the vision of the church? Can I help you?
2. There is so much in the Bible about generosity with possessions and money–that it would be difficult to get around it. I always think of it this way: "If the level of everyone else's generosity matched mine–how much good would be done for the kingdom in this community/world?"
FreedbyJC
Your post/reply leads me, as an Elder, to more questions than answers… maybe it is a leadership hazard…
But are we to judge peoples hearts by what we see on the ledger sheet? What about their fruit? Are we not told that it is an indicator of their heart? You mentions that, to your dismay, many of your leaders are not 'giving'…if they are leaders are they not 'giving' of their time and talents to further His kingdom?
"If the level of everyone else's generosity matched mine–how much good would be done for the kingdom in this community/world?" How much earthy good is being done by those not giving to 'your level?' What 'unknown' needs are they fulfilling?
Have you had those 'discovery' conversations? What is answer to your concerns? How do they reconcile their current giving level with God's will for them?
Barrett
"These type of discoveries lead to conversations"
I would hope that my pastor, if he was going to ask about my giving, that he would do so from chosen ignorance of my record. I'd hate to have that conversation just because he had access to my giving records. It seems sleazy to sit at one's desk and review what everyone gives (and I've done this as a pastor). I hesitate now to know what each gives, because it made me awfully judgmental (i.e. this blog post).
An interesting phrase in 2 Corinthians 8, when Paul is using the Macedonian church as an example is "entirely on their own." The Macedonian church chose to give "entirely on their own" and begged for the "privilege of sharing in the ministry to the Lord's people." They didn't give because their pastor had access to their giving records or because they knew they'd receive a thank you card or for fear of being judged if they didn't. Entirely on their own, they gave.
Giving records are a lame motivation to give. This is precisely the reason I give cash. I don't want the church accountant or pastor or elders judging based on that. They have asked me about my giving and I tell them. It's a much more open, honest form of shepherding–conversing with your sheep, not critiquing their bank statements.
David
I believe in church tithing records. I didn't use to, but keeping in line with good stewardship we can claim that very record on our taxes and receive more money back from our tax refunds thereby increasing the ability to give more. Give what you can as often as you can regardless of what anyone else does and everything seems to go well.
Tim Stevens
Does it seem sleazy to sit down with someone and talk to them about their volunteering? What about their spiritual disciplines such as prayer or Bible study? What about the way that they parent or disciple others or love their spouse? All of these are important conversations as we pastor and disciple the people in our congregation.You are right in one thing: Giving records are a lame motivation to give. It’s my love for Jesus that compels me to be generous. It’s using the brain God gave me that compels me let the church record my gift (due to the tax deduction, which returns to me 15% minimum back to invest in the Kingdom).
Stuart
Tim, thanks for the speedy reply and honesty. In the terms of money v giving I'm undecided – for the record I do both but I know of others and have had many a 'chat' about this aspect and I don't feel confident in being able to say one way or the other. So I chicken out and say 'whatever' it's your heart that has to be right before God and I can't control that, only mine.
Thanks.
Bruno
As a person whom in my pre- Christ following days thought about gathering and spending as much money as possible on me, I can say with confidence that God blesses those who are generous. Tim, I think you were the one a while back that said you and Faith add 1% additional in your "budget" every year above and beyond the tithing to bless others, and Lisa and I are doing that.. It is so liberating to know that your hard earned money is being used to bring God's kingdom.. and every year that we give more, God has blessed us with more.. and I'm not talking about just money/resources.. He's given us more responsibilities, closer relationships with people who challenge us to grow and keep getting closer to Christ, people who pray and support God's calling for our lives, people in our life where we had to make the choice to help them.. The list goes on and on.. But I think you make a great choice to focus on those who give.. It will be much more productive than dwelling on those who do not!
David
Please don't gauge my record by the books. We tithe to our home church. But a lot of our giving above our tithe is to other long term commitments we made years ago. I believe in the way Pastor Mark says it. God doesn't want your money he wants your heart and wherever you put your money is where your heart is. People say give until it hurts and I say give until the pain goes away.
JD Eddins
Discussions of money are always touchy, and I think all of us say we wish we could do more. However, I know that the majority of Americans make financial decisions that they cannot keep. The average college student leaves school with $20,000 of credit card debt (that doesn't include school loans). Although my family doesn't follow all the principles of the Dave Ramsey plan, we have stayed debt free throughout our marriage (the only money we owe is on our house). This commitment to no debt has allowed to be generous in ways that most people living below the median income are not.
Tim Stevens
Great modeling JD! I believe you are right. So many conversations I've had with people who can't tithe but want to give more stem from bad decisions in the past. They acknowledge that their bad decisions have tied their hands. They couldn't respond to a prompting by God to help someone in need if they wanted to. So, thanks for modeling a life of restraint and generosity.
Gary C
JD, it sounds like your Pastor needs to get you into a position to disciple other believers of your income range. If I had men like you in my life in my twenties, I would be able and willing to give much more than 10% now.
Travis Thompson
Tim,
I often saw the same thing to be true. Then I began to look for odd trends that would indicate to me that these people actually were giving their money, just not funneling it through the proper channels – at our medium sized church, there always seemed to be new set designs, or new toys for the nursery, a new amp for the guitar. And more often than not, the people who bought those things were either not tithers or tithes conspicuously lower than their apparent lifestyle would allow. I think, perhaps, this is less about people not giving than about people not understanding why they should give to the church; perhaps the difference between a tithe and an offering. Not sure that that is what's unfolding when I read your account, but when I hear of someone deeply committed to a certain area of ministry, in my experience, they are usually attempting to fund it out of their pocket. Their reasons ranged from "I thought that was how it worked" to "well, if I give the money to the church, they may use it for paying salaries instead of funding the motorcycle ministry" – anyway, I'd encourage you to look deeper. I had youth leaders going broke funding small group activities who didn't understand or comprehend that the church would offset the money they spent on dinners, or outings. Just remember there are two sides to the (ungiven) coin.
Brian
Just read 2 Cor. 6-8 this morning and couldn't agree more Tim. God has been tugging at my heart telling me "you can do better".
Jim
I deliberately don't look at the giving records at my church (in my role I do have access) because I don't want to feel frustrated!
I must also admit that I don't want to know who out-gives me but (I suspect) earns less than me…
MG.
I agree with tithing and being generous with what God has given. is there any biblical guidance on whether that money MUST go to the local church or is the believer able to use discretion in giving that tithe to charity or directly to someone who needs it rather than funding an institution that may or may not be making good use of the incoming funds.
Tim Stevens
MG – there are people who say that the tithe BELONGS to the local church. I personally think it's difficult to make a biblical defense for that. However, when I talk to people about this, here is what I say, "Why would you attend a church that you don't feel good about supporting? Is your church not doing anything worthy of your support? Would you be just fine if your church went away and no longer existed (i.e. if everyone gave at your level). If you don't trust how they spend the money, find another church where there are leaders you can throw 100% of your support behind!"
Personally, we give 10% of everything I bring home in the general fund at our church. Not because I have to or because I think it's required. But because I want to. Then we set aside another 10% to support missionaries or projects we believe in–as well as helping people in need who God brings across our paths.
Tithing Us » Frustrated – LeadingSmart
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James
Our pastor told us that only 20% of the congregation tithed regularly. This blew me away. Imagine what great things we could accomplish…The church needs to do a better job in explaining why prosperity helps everyone.
Tim Stevens
James — if 20% of your congregation tithes–that is WAY higher than most churches. The national average (according to the Barna Research Group) is 5%. Look down your row this Sunday at church. Only 1 in 20 people give 10% of their money away…to any purpose, local church or not.
Buddy Knight
This is a complex issue. On one hand, it could be said that the Pastor should not KNOW who is giving what so that knowledge does not impact how he interacts with his flock. This is the same reason, IMHO, the pastor should not seek out knowledge of other areas that may contain sin. Also, if a pastor knows who is giving what, no matter how noble his intentioned, such knowledge could adversely affect his relationships. Hopefully a pastor would never have a frustrated slip on the order of: "If ______ would just TITHE we wouldn't have this problem!!! It might also lead to wanting to minister to the person whose tithe, if given, would be large, when the blessings need to be experienced by all regardless of income and wealth.
On the other hand if a person is sinning in the area of stewardship then the Pastor can take action. The first would have to be prayer. The last, IMHO, would be to confront the individual.
Personally, I feel this to be a minefield. Many feel that their giving is between themselves and God (aside from the person preparing statements and their CPA, of course). If folks thought that a Pastor was checking up on them they might feel convicted, or they might move. If they move they probably will not be ministered to in a way that brings behavior into line with God's will. There will be bitterness, etc., and maybe distrust.
Our people struggle with sin and faithfulness on many fronts. While there is a blessing to tithing, too much knowledge about who is giving what might make us miss larger issues in their lives that are more critical to their spiritual lives than tithing.
When I was pastoring my first church I made the decision to NOT know.
Just some thoughts. GREAT POST!
Sunny Cain
Such a hard battle in churches today…the ability to know tithes. I personally think knowing what people tithe is for God himself, after all He is the one who can judge & see the motives of the heart. He is the one who knows /sees who tithes anonymously and who doesn't put their name on the tithe envelope. He is also the one who will convict those who aren't tithing. But, as a pastor, I can totally understand how frustrating it has to be. I also don't believe in thanking the "BIG GIVERS" like many churches are in the habit of doing….or throwing a dinner to ask BIG GIVERs for more. Who determines who a big giver is? Aren't we tithing to God and not for our church leaders? Yet the way these are structured if you GIVE BIG…you GET INVITED and you GET HONORED in many church settings….but God doesn't care about dollar amount…he cares about the heart.
Then again, who am I?:)
Tim Stevens
It's hard to get around the fact that giving is a spiritual gift. I believe it's important to recognize every gift as it is exercised in the church. When I write thank-you notes to donors…it isn't just for "big givers." I also look for consistency over time, sacrifice, steps, and more.
dmbaldwin
Hey Tim,
Thanks so much for the post and your responses to the comments above. I am with you. Do we ignore the spiritual discipline of giving because of the whole issue of privacy, etc. People get weird when it comes to $$. I'm sure because it is a way of showing what their true priorities are. I also believe we need to help those who have the spiritual gift of giving to steward their gift to it's fullest, just like we would with any other spiritual gift.
I prayed this morning — just like I do every week — that our people would have generous hearts this weekend. The funds that are given are making a kingdom impact. And that prayer is being answered at LifePoint Church.
Blessings,
Dave
Christy
IF you give only for a tax credit (not everyone receives the same tax benefit from reporting tithes), are you giving in obedience? Just give. Don't write checks, don't use your credit card/debit card, don't worry about records. Just give cash. God sees. The money gets counted and used. No one can use it against you to judge you or to keep tabs on you. The best blessing comes in giving sacrificially and sometimes the sacrifice is not getting acknowledgment for it. We haven't given in a church record tracking way in 6 years and haven't used claimed the tax write off either. God has blessed us far more for just being generous. Giving Caesar what is due him and giving God more. Is there any Biblical precedence for tracking giving? Would it be tracked if it were not for the IRS laws and tax exempt status laws? Was it tracked before the laws were created? Do other believers in other cultures track the giving of their church members?
Tim Stevens
I've never met anyone who gives "just" for a tax credit. That would be ill-advised: "Give away $100 so you can get $15 back." Not a very smart financial decision.
However, for anyone who gives regularly–a tax deduction can make it possible for them to give more than they would otherwise. It's just smart for those who already give.
Max
I'm with you on that. It would be better if everyone gave in cash – then no one would know but God. That is the way it should be. Then, people on very limited incomes wouldn't feel like they don't deserve to go to church because they couldn't give a lot. I have another question: Why do countries like Australia, Germany, Russia and on and on not teach that 10% giving. Do they not live by the same Bible we live by. If you don't believe me – e-mail them and ask they how they handle funding in their countries for the church. You will be very surprised.
The Bible tells us to take care of our family and personal responsibilities, also. If you don't have enough money for house repairs and car repairs and food and clothing – then I do not believe God wants you to give 10% to the church and let everything else run down. Most translations say you are to give as you prosper. Now, please answer me: If you can't pay your bills or buy shoes when you need them – Are you prospering. Look up the word prosper and see what it means.
It also says to look out for the widows and the poor. I sure don't see that being done in my church. All I see is them asking for more and more money. I don't see the pastor on his big salary and being able to take ski vacations and trips abroad saying he will take a bit less in his salary to help those who need it.
bluedevildad
Tim, great post and definitely some of the things I struggle with as well. I just try to keep in mind that the only people who don't want us to know what they are giving – are people who aren't giving!
Max
That is not true. I give every week and give proportionately. But, I do not feel it is any one's business but God what that amount is. That is because I know the people who know how much others give are judgemental.
Mark Goodrich
The facts in this situation are simple. biblically the principles are simple. You have violate one in your knowing. Your frustrated is in part due to what you know. Not for you to knwo. If you know what you know about the people in your community of faith…ie. giving amounts and giving level and your frustrated… try this out….go directly to your leader and have a honest conversation about your knowledge of giving and see how that go. Then blog on your conversation. I amsurprised not more of the comments today challenge your behavior. Your action should be questioned. wow is this common at Granger. If I ever become a GCC member or staff I will be sure to give in cash, Actually I have been giving cash for years becuse of this very inssue You should not know the amount any person at granger gives. Why do you need to know. Not your role. As I see it your role is to teachg, encourage and model sacrifical giving. I am glad you are frustrated. Change the your ways see how it changes your frustration level.
Mark
You are probably right that Pastors should not get too interested in the individual giving of their congregants. However, I wonder if, after hearing Jesus compare the giving of a poor little lady's 2 mytes to everyone elses giving, the Pharisees would have made the same argument.
Tim Stevens
Mark – I have done that many times (i.e. gone to a leader to have a conversation about their giving). I have been thanked several times. I have never been told it was offensive.
This post was limited to a conversation about giving. But it's not my only frustration. My guess is you also share other frustrations with me. As pastors, we are often frustrated when someone we love is destroying their marriage. Or we are frustrated when a friend continues to make bad choices and ruin relationships. Or we are frustrated because more people aren't engaging in the spiritual disciplines that we know will make them stronger. It's part of being a leader. We want more for our friends. Even in the area of generosity.
dannyjbixby
I don't understand the offense that some people are taking with you having knowledge of your members giving.
To me, it would be irresponsible to NOT access that information.
As you said above, and I completely agree, it's akin to helping people who are struggling in any other spiritual discipline.
I'm not sure why people think this information should be private. And much more importantly than that, if people would be so upset that their pastor is aware of the information, how much angrier would they be when they figure out that God knows about it too.
halhunter
Tim, I am in the same position. As Administrator, I maintain the membership and giving database, so I see everything. Our Senior Pastor used to insist on not seeing any giving records for fear that it would color his dealings with our congregation. After years of seeing some people in positions of leadership neglect their giving, I insisted he look at the leadership giving records if not the general membership. It was a real shock to him, and a wake-up call. We took steps to make sure that no one was in a senior position of leadership without being a faithful giver. Almost overnight, all sorts of problems disappeared. How we handle our money really is a powerful indicator of our heart condition and our priorities.
Unless and until we get the Fair Tax, or until Uncle decides that charitable giving is not deductible, people are going to want and need giving records. As a matter of fact, the IRS will not allow deduction of charitable giving of any kind over $250 without a statement of giving from the receiving organization. Records and reports require that at least a few people are going to know what is given, but that number should be limited and held to a high standard of information confidentiality.
dannyjbixby
"As Administrator, I maintain the membership and giving database, so I see everything. Our Senior Pastor used to insist on not seeing any giving records for fear that it would color his dealings with our congregation. After years of seeing some people in positions of leadership neglect their giving, I insisted he look at the leadership giving records if not the general membership. It was a real shock to him, and a wake-up call. We took steps to make sure that no one was in a senior position of leadership without being a faithful giver. Almost overnight, all sorts of problems disappeared. How we handle our money really is a powerful indicator of our heart condition and our priorities."
Excellent, excellent example about what this is really all about.
This isn't about money at all. Money never was the issue here.
larry
My approach as a pastor has become basically along these lines – nobody in leadership who does not show consistency in giving. I don't want to know the amounts connected to individuals, largely because 1) it might not be accurate, since some are inclined to give in cash as well, and 2) I don't want my knowledge of their giving amounts to in any way affect how I might minister to an individual in a moment of personal crisis, etc.
Tom Becker
I wonder that if Lead pastors or any other pastor need to know who's giving what and how much, especially his staff, do they also keep track of the persons devotional life, his marital situation, his struggles with raising his children, his struggles with taking care of his elderly parents, spiritual growth, and so on. Much emphasis is put on what they give but what about other areas just as important. 1 other question. Doesn't God also honor people who give of their time and talents. Some people give a tenth of their time in volunteering. Does that count?
Tim Stevens
Yes Tom–you've hit the nail on the head. It isn't a money issue. Whether we are pastors or just followers of Christ–we should be loving the people around us. That includes speaking truth and asking tough questions at times. About spiritual disciplines, marriages, parenting, relational difficulties, serving, and yes…their level of generosity.
Tom Becker
My problem is I have never seen that happen at any church I attended. They're always supremely interested in how much we give.
Ron S.
I've been a tithe/offering giver all my life. In my previous church, tithing was mandatory, and not just a tithe, but up to three tithes in a year some years, plus offerings. And they checked. Because of that, I'm probably a little sensitive to the idea of someone reviewing my giving records. Even though my theology has changed over the years, my practice of tithing has not and I believe those who lead should also literally tithe. However, if you look at my tithing records, you'll not see an accurate picture of all that I actually give to church or other deserving organizations. While the majority of my giving goes to the church via check, I also put cash into the weekend basket, purchase food and supplies throughout the year for the ministries we serve in, etc.
I appreciate your frustration. I was shocked by the reported low levels of tithing at our church, if for no other reason than it indicates that people aren't really understanding the life we're called to or what God is doing there. It's an uncomfortable and difficult topic that we need more discussion on.
Ron
Speaking of tithing records, I think of Christ's exhortation of not letting the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing, of the blowing of your horn thing. The issue seems, too, to be a Law vs. Grace thing. I think that if you are redeemed by the Law, give by the Law. If by grace, give by grace. The sign of the old covenent was circumcision. Are we trying to make the tithe the sign of the new? Also, what do you think about the fact the the cumulative tithe in the Old Testament was 23.3 percent? Are we all on board for that?
Ron
Let me continue a bit more. I used to belong to a megachurch that boasted in how everything they took in went to missions. There was a manipulative sermon on tithing about ten times a year. I remember asking the church to assist me in providing for a homeless person whom I had been tryiing help out. They essentially brushed me off and told me to go to one of the local charities. I later in a found that 44 percent of all that was given to the church went to salaries. The church brought in, if memory serves, over $7,000,000 the year that I asked the church for help the aforementioned homeless person. The church does have, however, a large, impressive campus with very large buildings. Now, I am not saying the church does not give to the community. It does. …But the whole episode left me a bit cynical about what is done with my tithes.
Mike
Shouldn't you be thankful that they are contributing something to the cause verses nothing? Just because someone gives less then what you aspect [first of all it's a joy to give, and shouldn't be expecting anyone to just give] shouldn't be such a discouragement then people who are just not giving at all! Just keep on praying! God will open their heart, eyes, and mind.
Max
It is very easy to quote tell others that everyone should give 10%, if you are able to do it and are in that place financially. It is NOT possible for some to do that. I am widowed and live on close to $1,000 a month. I have to take care of my home, and old 15 year old car, pay the electricity, phone and all that goes along with it. When I have major car repair – I have to put those on the credit card, because there isn't enough money on my income to do that. If I were to sell my house and move to an apartment in this economy – I would come out worse. I had a very serious surgery on my neck, and I can't mow my lawn – so I have to pay $100 a month for that. If someone from the church would volunteer to do that for me – then, maybe I could give that $100 in addition to what I give to the church. I'm sorry, but it is just not quite right that the pastor can take ski vacations, travel to other countries and eat out once in a while – and I have a hard time buying the groceries. Isn't it interesting that (I believe) the USA and maybe Canada are the only countries that even talk about a 10% tithe. Are we the only countries that live by the Bible. I get so discouraged with the pressure put on people with limited incomes to give 10% that I am just about ready to not go to church, and just stay home and give what I can to help people who are really in need. Giving should be something you want to do – not something you are forced into. I know it costs to run a church building – but I also know that God has blessed some in the church with large monthly incomes. If they give 10% – They still have lots to live one. If I give 10%, I may go without food for the month. And for the bunch of nonsense that if you give 10% – God will give you back more money. Well — I'm sorry dear ones – it doesn't work that way. God may indeed bless you abundantly – but nothing in the Bible says it will be with money!
Tim Stevens
Max – this post wasn't about tithing…but about generosity. I know some of the comments referenced tithing–but that wasn't my focus. God bless you for doing what you can to help others.
My personal experience is that it's always easier to give when you have little than when you have a lot. Consumerism and materialism are sneaky and especially in America. That obviously isn't what you are dealing with–but many people are.
It doesn't matter what anyone says about giving–God says it is connected to the condition of our hearts. We'll let Him sort it all out.
Max
I realize it does have to do with the condition of your heart. But, let's be real here. You have to have the money first to give it. And, the Bible says that you are to pay your bills, also. How much of a testimony is it to the world that you give what the church expects you to give and then neglect your bills and have to declare bankruptcy. I really don't think that is a good testimony. The amount you give should be entirely between you and God. The church should not be putting pressure on people like they do. God will nudge you when He knows you can do more. I am a person who always wants to do something special for someone in the hospital with cancer and having treatment, or someone who has lost a loved one – or someone in need. How many people that give their 10% to the church care about people when they are in need. I can tell you – NOT MANY!
Max
Now, your statement that it is easier to give when you have little than when you have a lot just does not make sense. I think the math would tell you that isn't correct. If you have so much in expenses and not enough to pay those expenses – then, there isn't a lot to give. I doubt that you could live on close to $1,000 a month and maintain a home, and old car, pay the electricity, water, sewer, garbage, purchase some gas for the car, buy groceries, pay property taxes and irrigation fees and home owners fees and still be able to give a lot. I have had financial advisers go over my budget, and they couldn't make any suggestions where I could cut. It's nice to be able to say that poor people can give better than rich people. But, it just ain't so!
Tim Stevens
Max – you have to be comfortable in your own heart that you are doing what God is asking of you. There is no need to defend it if you are.
I only have my own experience, and I was actually recounting the story to a friend today. When my wife and I first got married, we were making $7,000 a year. We had an apartment for $200/month — we owned a bed, a freezer and a donated vehicle. We decided that not giving was not an option–we'd rather be homeless. So we started at 10% during that first year when we had nothing–and inched it up a little bit every year until we got to 20%.
I have never seen someone say "I will start giving when I have more money" who actually did. Never. Why? Because it's not an issue of money. It's a heart issue. I believe God will bless those who are generous–and he will withhold blessing from those who aren't.
Michelle Wegner
Lots and lots of opinions on giving. I haven't been able to get this post out of my head. I just uploaded a post to the One Prayer site that really got to me, and made me think harder about your post, and the lack of generosity of USA Christians. Very sobering.
http://2009.oneprayer.com/give/updates
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[...] to become a legalist – great post by Mark Driscoll (Mars Hill) The frustrations post of Tim Stevens of Granger Community Church are shared by so many church leaders today. AMEN!! When I [...]
Edward Abbey
Just another church leader obsessed with money.
Hawk
Exactly what I was thinking when I read this, Ed. Church leaders today seem to think everyone who enters the front door should be emptying their pockets (and bank account). I've found that a lot churches today have taken to using guilt tactics to get people to contribute. Then the money received is applied to a spending spree of building additions and state of the art technologies to "reach" the lost. Last I checked it was a Christians heart that is most effective as a witness, not the materialism of a church is. My tithes and offerings go towards groups who are actually going out and doing the work of God…the true church. Shame on you Tim for looking at giving records and making harsh judgements.
Tim Stevens
Help me out Hawk — please point out one "harsh judgment" I made in my post? I just re-read it…and I don't think I made any judgment at all–harsh or otherwise.
Hawk
The judgments you made were towards certain people in regards to how much money they were giving to YOUR place of worship. You accused folks of short changing you. From your post you make it sound as if your ministry is entitled to 100% of your congregations tithe. People are often led by God to give elsewhere. I know I am. What's truly frustrating is when a ministry starts demanding that people hand over a payment due. I don't know what is worse: a bill collector or a church with an entitlement complex.
Guess Who Knows How Much Money You Give? | Danny J Bixby
[...] with giving/tithing at his church. You can read about that here if you’d like: http://www.leadingsmart.com/2010/03/frustrated.html The gist was that he was going to stop worrying about the frustrating aspects of knowing the [...]