Hey Tim,
I love it! I do! I know you do too! The fact they are using ALPHA, that just fits in to their whole philosophy of looking at the Bible and seeing what it has to say. ALPHA has changed the way I share and interact with those how are not Christ-followers, but have questions re: the Christian faith.
Now you have some people just down I-69 who are doing the Coffee and Bible thing. Alliance World Coffees is all about starting churches using a coffee shop model. Not quite as out there, but still a great model.
Thank you for bringing us stuff like this!
Blessings,
Dave

My short answer… I think it's great.

Love the idea; didn't love the video. It was just kind of…odd.
That being said, I do hope their idea takes off. Normal people need Jesus; I love how this idea could be a catalyst for that, especially in such an unchurched region. Good luck, boys! Will be praying for God to really be loud in your conversations!

I don't drink beer anymore…but I'd go to this in a heartbeat. I pray that they reach many with the love of Christ.
Peace,
Jay

Is it just me, or does the camera-work make you feel a bit drunk?

This is a cool idea, though.

Why not. How many Christians go to Bible study and then secretly enjoy beer at home. At least these guys are being real.

I'm not sure why they would do something that could be a stumbling block for young Christians. It sounds like they are trying to reach unchurhed people, so I definitely applaud them for thinking outside the box and how they can meet people where they are. I also think it's great that they are providing those who don't like to drink with an alternative option. But I think in the long haul, it could end up biting them harder than they may be ready for. Let's say a struggling alcoholic decides to come, which in one sense would be great, right? He's there studying the Bible! But he is also there being led by mature Christians and continuing to dive deeper into his addiction. Again, it's great that he's there talking about God, but where do we draw the line. (1 Cor. 8:9-11)

I totally agree to the person that says, "Well how is that different from having fattening food at your small group knowing that someone may come that is struggling with food addiction or obesity?"

Again, not saying this is completely wrong, but I think I would approach it with some pretty strong caution. I don't like to be that guy who disagrees with everything, I'm just saying they should use some caution here.

Love it. Do it. Hope others do it too.

Grace Freak
Dan Rockwell

Isn't Utah by and large a dry culture? I guess not…

I'm okay with this. In my old days, I was curious about the Bible and certainly liked (and still like) beer, so it may have brought down my barrier just enough. I encounter plenty of people like that — curious, but with barriers — and wish for ways to bring those barriers down! The concern is always about enabling someone with a drinking problem, but I assert that God's the alcoholic's real solution. I like the idea of meeting people where they are, and letting God take them from there.

I actually pastor a church in a bar… not an active bar, but a night club we purchased a couple of years ago. We still have three bars actually in the facility. I say that to give some context for my comment.

I don't like it. I fear the "missional" mindset is becoming synonymous with compromising values. I'm all for getting out of the box…. you can't get much more out of the box than having a church with three bars. But out of the box doesn't have to mean "of the world". If they are going into the environment to meet people where they are and have a Bible study, then I did that. But if they are going into the environment to also have a "couple of beers" while doing a Bible study, then I think they are way off the mark.

Mind you… I don't believe the Bible teaches "thou shalt not drink"…. however, as the previous poster mentioned, 1 Corinthians 8 is my guiding principle in these matters. I see this as a potentially dangerous road. Good intentions… bad results…. and in my opinion, does not honor the charge to be "in the world, but not of the world."

There is a church down in Destin, FL that does a church service in a bar on a Tuesday night and regularly has 100+ people in attendance. You can order a drink and a meal and sit & listen to the speaker bring a message. It is very relaxing place to bring an unchurched friend. You can check it out at http://www.churchatmcguires.com.
I think we are going to see more & more stuff like this as our culture wakes up to the fact that many of the things the American church sees as wrong were more influenced by our culture than by scripture.

Absolutely love it. In a place like Utah, where LDS theology requires perfection (because Jesus' sacrifice isn't sufficient to save us) and alcohol is verboten, it's edgy enough to catch inactive or disenchanted Mormons and those who don't have any religious affiliation but might wander in to a bar and have an honest discussion.

That's how our whole church got started, our pastor worked as a waiter in a bar & grill type restaurant and started a beer and Bible study! That was just over ten years ago and we are now a church of over 3500 people that has seen over 11,000 people come to Christ. Jesus came to seek the lost, and I'm one to tell you, there are a lot of lost people hanging out in bars, I think that's where Jesus would be hanging out if He were here today! He was called the Friend of sinners!

First off, let me say, I am no stranger to a bar. I do not write this as one who is prudish about alcohol but as one who has had his fair share. I am not completely against beer. On its own, like wine, I think it's fine, but… Most often, what you win them with is what you when them to. Are we supposed to win them with love wherever they are at in the hopes to bring them out of the world and into the kingdom of of God? Or are we trying to win them with by appealing to their worldly desires which may or may not become a stumbling block. It seems to me these guys might not be familiar with how many Christian lives alcohol has destroyed. I am for going into bars to evangelize through love but not through beer. The gospel doesn't need this gimmick to reach the lost.

Jesus drank wine so I would think that wine and the Word would go together better than beer and the Bible !

I'm interested in seeing how this goes. There are a lot of variables involved. I love the idea, being real and honest about life and God, but really look forward to seeing what happens. Good luck and godspeed guys.

Two if my favorite things, I would go.

it's an issue with some Christians, but who cares? they aren't trying to get the already convinced to "come and see". by and large this use to be a big conversation in the church but is now only a blip on the screen and then usually only with those that are having to tow a denominational barge of poor exegesis.

I think it's an awesome idea. I think that if Jesus were walking the earth today, he would be in our churches calling "out" our sheltered Christian lifestylists and in our bars calling "in" our sinner brothers to salvation. If we are to lead people to Jesus, we have to go to where they are. And if you don't like a greasy cheeseburger and a beer every now and then, you need to repent and get with the program.

We have a group in the church I'm at called "The Speakeasy" where we brew beer and talk about God. It's along the same thread as this, and we also have things like this in our area (Boston) called "Theology on Tap". The 2 drink maximum is a great rule of thumb, and people will respect this rule because they'll respect the people running it.

It's necessary to reach these people where they're at, then transitioning to a home group or something where there won't be such temptation for excess.

I'm in Utah and am trying to help with this ministry. Utah is unlike any other place in the United States, as some areas are 99% (Utah County) LDS (Latter Day Saints) and other places (such as where I'm church planting at) are 40% LDS. In West Valley City (a suburb of Salt Lake City where I'm focusing) is 40% active LDS, 1% Catholic, 1% Mainstream Christianity, and 1% are Evangelical Christians. That leaves 57% who aren't attending any type of church services. This means that possibly 99% of people in WVC do not have a relationship with Christ. Christian churches have been struggling with reaching people for the past 100 years in Utah. In WVC there are 130,000 people and there are about a dozen Christian churches. There are 1200 people who attend these churches (this is regular attendance and not based on members). Only one of these churches have been effective in outreach and growth.

Utah is a difficult place to church plant as the active members of the LDS are very legalistic and they wouldn't ever step inside of a a Christian Church. On the other hand you have people who are the exact opposite who are very against religion, but are willing to talk about spiritual matters, but still wouldn't step inside of a Christian Church. One of the purposes for Beer and Bible is to reach the 60% (West Valley City statistic) who may be interested in the Bible, Jesus, etc. but aren't willing to step inside of a church. We have other groups that we are offering for those who won't be comfortable in a bar setting, such as our Alpha Groups.

The question that we all must ask ourselves is the church being effective in reaching lost people for Christ? In Utah, the church in general has had a difficult time with evangelism because of our culture. We (Mission West and New Hope) are willing to take chances and try new things in order to see God's name and fame spread in our city and in Utah. Beer and Bible is a tool that we are looking to try out. It may or may not work but if one person comes to know Christ then starting the ministry was well worth it.

Wow… I continue to be amazed at the way we want to "justify" engaging in the lifestyle of the world in order to "reach" people. Jesus clearly came on a search and rescue mission…. but we seem to want to focus on the "search" part, not so much the rescue part. I don't see Jesus engaging in the behaviors of the world in order to reach the lost. He loved, them, met them on their turf, but remained entirely holy.

I firmly believe there has been too much isolation from the world. We MUST engage…. and that means we need to be willing to GO. But it doesn't mean we have to go and ACT LIKE THE WORLD.

I pledged a frat at University of South Carolina. I didn't drink. I did before I arrived there, but was convicted it was not a good practice. So, upon my arrival at USC, I could have looked and acted like them to fit in…. but I didn't. and I didn't have to. They accepted me for me…. not for how much I could drink. I witnessed. I reached out…. but I was different. Isn't that the call of Scripture?

Have we gotten so comfortable in our culture that we are now like it?

I'm interested in seeing how this goes. There are a lot of variables involved. I love the idea, being real and honest about life and God, but really look forward to seeing what happens. Good luck and godspeed guys.

Love it. Wasn't Jesus' first miracle when he turned water into wine? If it brings more people to Christ, I am for it.

"Talk about unchurched!" is right! Many people don't realize how many places like that there are here in our own country. We have a campus ministry team in Utah and God is moving. It's a battlefield! Real conversations is where it starts.

I would give it some pause. Though if we are truly desiring to connect with missed people, this is where we will find them. Given their context finding people who are in bars and reaching them will make an impact. Seems like the beer/location is a means of finding a third place.

The whole thing about going where Jesus would go…He would probably also go to the local Mormon church and preach there too…I keep hearing people try to justify their ministries by the whole "well this is what Jesus would do" thing and frankly I just don't buy it all the time. Jesus would not turn anyone away but I find it dubious to suggest He hung out IN the brothels, bordellos, bars, and bingo halls. The accusation isn't so much WHERE Jesus hung out but WITH WHOM Jesus hung out.

I do worry about contemporary evangelicalism though, if for it seems that too many of us are trying to use the Scriptures to justify our methodology instead of allowing our methodology to be informed by Scripture. Why couldn't this same thing happen in a coffee house, or in at a library, or in/at a mall, or anywhere else. Why here?

Maybe I'm too attached to my own Pharisaical ways…

You are the Church!
Robert

Wow…great conversation! I am the lead pastor at the plant and the bald dude on the video and would love to respond if I might:)

1. I rarely drink. In my first church plant [

I work for a church in the Salt Lake Valley. The mission field in our state isn't one that many people understand. Until you've studied and understood the LDS culture around, people don't realize what we're really having to work with. The population here is 1% Christian. The small number of churches in the valley have trouble banning together to help the people of the state. On a recent trip to this city, Bill Hybels, Pastor of Willow Creek in Chicago, said that he has never experienced any other place except here in our country that's oppression to Christianity is relatable to the New Testament times against the apostles (minus the violence/imprisonment/death). I encourage each of you to look into the mission field here. Check out http://www.mrm.org and http://www.bibletruths.org/cults/Mormonism.html
As for the bible and beer, I'm unsure I think that this is a good idea. While it is a very unique way to reach people, my dealings with alcohol lead me to feel that it's definitely not the best way to help this culture.

i read something by C.S. Lewis – here is a paraphrase – 'I don't understand this aversion the western church has toward alcohol. You can't possibly have an honest conversation about Christ until you've had a few pints.'
But I found the actual quote of this next one that fits here as well:
“An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons – marriage, or meat, or beer, or cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning.”

Love the idea of this new church.

What do you think Tim?
DLP

Love it! If you can't drink beer in church, at least you can drink it at Bible study.

Thanks Tim for giving this some light; can't wait to hear your response.

I'll give my two cents here.

I'm reminded of a Shannon O'Dell quote I heard last year.

"Become preoccupied with the lost…"

Our purpose is to reach the literally millions of people in the Salt Lake Valley. Utah is the fastest growing state and the most unchurched. There are millions of people that have no relationship with Jesus, or religion at all.

While I appreciate the input, let me me shed some more light onto how we reached our decision:

1) We prayed. Hard.
2) We wanted ROI on impact. "Where can we impact the most?"
3) We sought counsel of our ministry coaches, our leadership board (comprised of many of the pastors and leaders you all look up to as well), and the counsel and approval of our governing denomination.
4) We prayed some more.

Frankly, it comes down to this. We're not doing this because it's some trendy thing to have young hipster pastors in a pub having wings and chatting the jolly points of the new testament. It's not about being vogue.

On the same wing, we're not doing this for the approval of other Christians. (and I say that with the uttermost respect for all of you.)

We're doing it because God has called us into this place and we believe it to be an effective medium of reaching disenfranchised mormons, but more importantly, those that don't know Christ.

To be honest, I'm surprised the question of alcoholism comes on as strongly as it did here. My limited understanding of scripture has taught me that sin is anything that separates me from God. If it's alcohol, if it's Taco Bell, if it's Dave Matthews Band, if it's my TIVO. Regardless, that doesn't mean these things are inherently evil.

I'm reminded of Paul in Acts 17. Paul used culture to communicate Jesus. Use what's common and familiar to illustrate the truth. It seems to me that there was another man in scripture that did that.

All that being said, let's finish this thought. An alcoholic joins our group. Play this out. Who better for them to encounter than loving Christians to help them through the struggle. Talk to most alcoholics. It's the not the actual beer that wrecked them. It's the misuse and dependency upon it. My prayer is that we would be so lucky to encounter someone who is struggling that we might bring them closer out of this struggle to the great Healer.

It's 2 beers maximum. Utah serves 3.2% alcohol beer. Frankly, few are going to get drunk off two, especially at that %, with the mandatory food you must order. It's our Mars Hill.

It's the local gathering place where those who love conversation, thought, and challenge gather. And let's not doubt for a second that we don't catch some of the flack that Paul did in Thessolonica. We're in the LDS capital of the world.

Final Word:
It's not for everyone, every part of the country, or every church. But do us this favor. Pray for us. Pray hard. If you don't agree with what we're doing, pray harder. It's not easy work to proclaim the name of God in this area, or anywhere for that matter. So pray that Jesus is glorified in this. We're not glorifying beer – we're glorifying Jesus.

You don't even need for me to make a comment here Tim.

I think they are heretics

Gotta say something. A little background first. Almost everyone I know drinks alchohol of some sort. Some get drunk, some drink on occasion, some drink wine at a fine meal, some have a beer every night. Now, if you want to reach hookers, what are you going to do? What about reaching people on drugs? What if you want to minister to pimps, or people who steal, or murder, or cheat or beat on their wives? What about the homeless? Do you try to do all those things to minister to them? Pretty simple.

Very cool, out of the box idea. Where I live they'd beat you with the Bible belt for it…but a great way to reach people…as long as you do not become a stumbling block to others in the community. Keep up the good work! The gay bar thingy would be a hard one…because drinking a beer is not open sin; homosexuality is. That would be like starting a church in a brothel…like oil and water my friend.

[...] head over to TIM’S BLOG and read the comments and respond either way [or start a conversation here if you wish,] then PRAY [...]

I grew up in a bar. I'm quite comfortable there. I can talk and laugh and enjoy life with the people there. I do NOT like drunks. Most are obnoxious and generally disgusting — and most bars will escort them out the door.

That said, after much scripture has been quoted by others in the comments, I agree that it is drunkenness that is the sin, not the consumption of wine or beer or even hard liquor. I agree that we should not cause another to stumble. I agree that anyone who comes to the group and is an alcoholic should be helped. Thing is — part of being in a group like this is the doing life TOGETHER thing. You get to know the people. You find out that Joe doesn't drink, but he's got tons of questions about this Jesus-dude and no one in a church will answer them for him. And Jim, well, he's the recovering town drunk, recovering, yes, but still quite uncomfortable with attending a church.

Until we let go of our picking of nits (do you KNOW what those are and how tiny they are?) and get busy about the Father's business, whenever and wherever and however He tells us, WE are the ones sinning. Just last week, I heard a great summation of what we're supposed to do: "Listen to God, DO what He says."

"Obviously, I'm not trying to win the approval of people, but of God. If pleasing people were my goal, I would not be Christ's servant." Paul, the Apostle.

I'm proud of this team. They are my friends, and this effort makes me more proud to be their friends than ever.

Here's what I know about the people on this team: they want to reach people for Christ by all means short of sinning. In that, they remind me of Jesus. Jesus went to the what the religious people would deem the worst places with the worst people, because He didn't care what was said of Him. He only wanted to reach people. So this thread and others like it will exist where some people, in the name of God, will rip them apart. But someone's bound to get saved from their efforts, and at the end of the day, that will matter more to them.

Planting a church in Utah is like building an ark. It doesn't make sense, but when God tells you to do it, you do it the way He tells you to do it. You graciously put up with the naysayers, no matter how vitriol they may get,. You just keep doing what God told you to do. At the end of the day, your family will be blessed, and humanity can find redemption through your obedience.

Maybe Beer and Bible pisses you off. That's okay. But are you big enough to pray that God will use Charles, Mikey, Patrick, and the rest of the Mission West team, regardless of your personal feelings?

I find the thread of comments from those who classify this technique as "being in the world" or "engaging in the lifestyle of the world" interesting. I understand the caution, but you can't microscope one area and pass on the rest of it. They abstain from alcohol; fantastic. Do they put as much weight on abstaining from pride or questionable entertainment? How about that Taco Bell you grabbed on the way to Wednesday night service? Fast food has a massively negative impact on your body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and directly affects your ability to walk out your God assignment and fulfill all your days on this earth. But how many pastoral meetings have taken place over artery-clogging burgers and cholesterol-laden fries? I’m not at all speaking this in judgment. I’m just saying to be careful where you draw the line because your line isn’t necessarily God’s line.

I've been thinking this through for awhile now. I have come to the conclusion that we are people who live our lives with God in them, not people who, once saved, now live our lives to find the best angle on marketing God to others. The construction worker at the local pub probably isn’t going to hang with the doctor on the golf course. So why do we think that all Christians should have roughly the same lifestyle after conversion?

My husband and his dad love nothing more than to nurse a good Sam Adams and analyze every ingredient of a flavor-packed Cream Stout. That is some quality time for them, and it is a wide open door to a God conversation. For some of you, that beer might be a glass of iced tea, a ridiculously overpriced specialty coffee (stewardship discussion, anyone?), or a great day on a golf course (did you blow off your kids on the way out the door?). The point is to live your life by the convictions and plan God has given you. Adjust it based on His course corrections, not someone else’s opinions.

Kudos to these guys for taking the risk. Personally, I do think Jesus would have stopped by the bar for a cold one after a hot day on the golf course. He reached them all.

I find this whole conversation among a lot of pastors to be quite interesting. I am a not a pastor and unfortunately I made some bad choices in my college years (at a Christian college no less) that led to me going to a lifestyle outside of the church (after spending 21 years in the church and growing up in a strong Christian family). I spent over 7 years in the culture you are trying to reach and what led me into it was hanging out with people in it and being alone in a church that had no one who related to me and gradually over time being pulled into the bar and club lifestyle completely. That atmosphere is without a doubt the Satan's domain and the height of darkness in this world and getting out of that lifestyle was harder than anything I have done in my life and I am not an alcoholic. Satan has people pulled in and people in that lifestyle are completely vested in trying to keep their close friends in it and getting new members to join.

Wow – I've loved this discussion!

After reading every comment with great interest, I think it comes down to one basic issue. I don't want to over-simplify, but I think every person's view of alcohol colors their response. I know my view colors my response…

I don't drink alcohol. Yes–I've had a few of those fruity drinks while sitting on a beach in Mexico (and I should also confess that I LOVE Nyquil), but I've never had a beer and don't drink wine. Why? I love Coke, it's a lot cheaper, and I'm a tight-wad. But many (most) of my friends drink in my presence–and it's not an issue for me.

I don't think alcohol is evil. I don't think a bar is a den of iniquity. I've never had to deal with an alcoholic in my family and I've never lost anyone close to me because of the actions of a drunk. Those are all very important factors which color my response.

That being said, I absolutely LOVE what these guys are doing. There is really nothing innovative about Christians having a spiritual conversation in a bar with someone who isn't yet convinced. That happens every day in every city across our country (praise God!). However, what is innovative is a couple pastor-type dudes who see that as a way to make an impact in a community where there are ZERO non-Mormon churches. They aren't hanging a banner and saying, "You come to us." They have made an intentional decision: Let's go where the people are. That's exactly what Jesus did when the religious-types were looking down on him for the same thing. He didn't care what they thought–he went anyway! He didn't expect or wait for the crowd to come to him (although sometimes they did)–he hung out with them.

You may disagree with the method or location–but these guys hearts are in the right place. They are going to rub shoulders with some people who they would NEVER otherwise reach. They are going to spend time with a grandfather who–without intervention is going to RUIN his family–but he will hear of the grace of Jesus and his life will change–not because he stops drinking, but because he is transformed from the inside out and his values and choices are turned upside down. That's what Jesus does–and that excites me.

So…I celebrate it. God bless you Charles and Patrick. Carry on.

I thought you guys were planting a church. ????? So I'm assuming that means, build a place and put a bar in it and sell beer and talk about the Bible. Are you kidding me? But if you're going into an establishment or bar to talk about Christ and the Bible to people, well that's another story. More power to ya.

Please, where ever you stand on this issue, please pray for us and the people we are reaching out to. That this ministry will educate the lost about Jesus and pave the way for the Spirit to come in and do His thing.

Join us in this, by focusing this energy we're using to debate, and flooding Heaven with the prayer of the Saints!

Pray that we're NOT a stumbling block. That we DON'T get caught up in sin. That we ARE a light shining in the darkness for those who can't see. That we're able to show the love of Christ to that fellow who's drowning his sorrows and is hours away from taking his/her own life or beating his wife/children. God's children.Pray for success!

We did not come here for personal gain or to please the masses but to seek the lost for the glory of God. Period.

Now, with unity, let's pray like we know we should. No need to reply. Just pray, as the body of Christ. As one!

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news! ~ Romans 10:14-15

Wait…did I read this right? You have got to be kidding me.

Two guys are starting a church – in Utah? UTAH?! With bold faith and obedience, they'll be setting up a new outpost where people can come hear the amazing message of Jesus? In a community that doesn't have a single local gathering doing that?! Wow! Praise Jesus! My prayers are with you guys – may the favor of God be on you in rich ways – may he confirm the work of your hand! (Psalm 90:17).

Oh…did someone say something about beer? Huh…didn't even catch that part.

Tim, one note on your comments…

There are 50 or so Non-Mormon churches in town. They range in size from 7 to 1500, most of them around 50. Granger has actually equipped and helped my church before with technical advice from Adam and Butch, but there is definitely a Christian presence here (even if it’s %1 percent of the population).

[...] you followed our discussion last week about some guys in Utah who are offering a Beer and Bible study in a local lounge. (If [...]

Sorry that I’m late to this.. one thought… In a very religious area like Utah, I don’t think you can really call people unchurched. I guess you mean un-evangelical protestant-churched but as far as being used to and in a church culture, the folks in the mormon church live and breathe that stuff.

To be honest, I see a ministry like this as the thing that is doing the unchurching. Getting people out of their regular church culture and opening them up to a view of God that filters through an entirely (for them) unreligious lens. Does that make sense? In this sense, there are some places (even within less creepy christianities) where this unchurching is really necessary.

Even though my wife and I abstains from all alcohol consumption my first thoughts in viewing this were very positive. Why? Because more than I loathe alcohol (which I still crave at times from previous taste acquirement) I love building bridges to help people cross over to meet Christ. But as I mature in God's wisdom I must consider things more broadly and deeply – which I am not certain these leaders have done. Maybe they have. I am just not convinced. I think there is a difference between going into an environment the world has created to meet the comfort needs of humanity and minister to them in their place of comfort to "meeet them where they are at" and show no judgment but love. It is an entirely different philosophy to be the creator and replicator of a worldly environment so that people will come to you. One must ask themselves which of these philosophies did Christ most closely model for us.

I also become concerned that while this may allow various individuals to accept this "brand" of church, it will not fulfill God's purpose, revealed only to us in our generation (Eph. 3), of glory through Christian unity (Eph 3-4). My fear is that this will only bring greater cynicism and judging other Christians and churches that are less "accepting" of their comforts, preferences and desires. There is a risk of division and actual judgmental arrogance from the very people who claim this is why they stayed away from Christians and churches in the first place.

If this has any hope of truly honoring God's greater vision, the leaders must make a major intentional effort to bring their disciples quickly to a point of embracing every facet of genuine Christian practice and the convictions of every sincere believer.

The assumption that having a drink equates to "the lifestyle of the world" would be a foreign concept to the world of biblical times. Period. This frames the debate over this strategy in a narrow, provincial mindset that is more a product of a specific culture (Bible belt or neo-evangelical American) than is the notion of going to a pub for a beer.