IMHO Tim I believe I would much rather prefer to take GCC’s approach and reach out to unbelievers (or whatever you want to call them) than to “force feed” apologetics and see glazed eyes. Seems to me that the writer/reader has missed the point of the church gathering…it is for Him to be honored and glorified and for people to hear about the One who loves them unconditionally. If that means more and more don’t believe in salvation by grace then reaching out is being done. Obviously, you don’t want them to stay in that state…you want them to come to know Jesus by grace through faith. But I would much rather speak to a crowd of “non-committed” than a bunch of spiritual porkers. My .02 worth.

Awesome! Love it.

Luke 15:7 says: “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety‑nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. ”

I gotta start hanging out with more unbelievers…we all do.

So good Tim. Keep up the good work you’re doing there. Lots of churches are being inspired by what’s happening at Granger.

P.S. For those that won’t be able to travel to Innovate, will there be a web streaming option?

I would agree that the point of the church gathering is for Him to be honored and glorified but I would also add that it is a time for Christians to receive the gifts God gives us. I’m referring to hearing Him speak to us through the reading and preaching of the Word of God and to receive his Body and Blood in the sacraments. God comes to us in worship. If we are doing this faithfully the unbelieving seekers (to whom God is drawing them through the Holy Spirit) will hear the message of salvation.

As far as “force feeding apologetics”, I’m sorry you have had such a bad experience with that. Scripture clearly teaches the importance of apologetics. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” 1 Peter 3:15.

Another point about “force feeding”. What do you say to the countless older Christians who are “force fed” praise and worship music each week as their churches try to be more and more “relevant”. I’ve seen countless “glazed eyes” of people staring at large screens, mumbling words to praise songs. Or what about the countless singles, widows and children who are “force fed” 30 day sex challenges. Yes the modern day evangelical church does bring in the numbers, but it is strident in its provincial focus. The gathering of a church should be the bringing together of believers across all generations to worship the triune God, not a “youth group” for adults.

It is my humble observation that the seeker sensitive, purpose driven church is all about the seekers at the expense of the believers. That is what the Reveal Study says to me. I believe it was Rev. Michael Horton who said it best, “Right now, in the name of reaching the lost we’re actually losing the reached.”

Hey Tim,

I am envious! Hope that’s okay for a christian pastor! I am envious you have so many in services still seeking and searching for Christ.

Preaching at Proclaimers recently I sort of spoke off my notes and said I’d love to have a church where there were more there not yet connected with Christ than those who were.

I really didn’t understand what I had said but was excited – I see it at Granger! You guys continue to inspire us here in Norwich England.

Keep up the great job!

Tom Rawls
Senior Minister
Proclaimers
http://www.proclaimers.com

It’s funny how the “reached” are always the ones complaining about methods.

Hmmm. “At the expense of the believers”. What do I as a believer have or possess that I shouldn’t give up so that the lost should hear the Gospel?

(This includes any extra-Biblical tradition grafted onto Theology)

Nobody is stopping me from studying my Bible or learning theology. If a church has the resources to facilitate these and doesn’t, then that’s one thing.

But if it’s a choice between using a building to invite unbelievers and share the Gospel, or a study on apologetics. The result should be absolutely clear to any Christian.

Tim, I’ve been reading your blog (and others) for quite awhile, but never commented on anything before. It’s not that I haven’t found posts compelling enough to do so, just never took the plunge. However, this issue is one that really strikes my passion. I couldn’t agree with you more! It is mind numbing to me that this criticism continually comes up. I’m always curious what kind of evangelism efforts people who are critical are making themselves. I don’t really see a place for the ministry of criticism, critique, and correction of the teaching and ministry of others. Paul often corrected teaching and theology in churches, but it was in places where he planted the church and had a deep relationship with those in the church. I’m guessing these guys would’ve been hugely critical of Paul himself because he had to address the Roman church on issues like drunkenness and having orgies. I’m guessing his (Paul’s) “becoming all things to all men as a means that SOME might be saved” approach would be rather harshly criticized by the same crowd and no further proof would be needed than his own admission that the Roman church was full of drunkenness and immorality.

Keep the great work, you are inspiring many of us toward greater creativity and passion for those far away from God!

Tim,
GREAT THOUGHTS!! But, my answer would be, that “no”, I don’t think “most” pastors would want that. And, that’s a sad commentary. But, if it were so, wouldn’t we do church differently? Wouldn’t we be willing to set aside personal preferences? Wouldn’t we be willing to NOT listen to the power broker who doesn’t like “contemporary music” and God-forbid, a “secular” song? Wouldn’t we spend more time with unchurched people ouselves? Wouldn’t we have “beginnings” groups in our homes, and hang out with spiritually confused people? I wish it weren’t so, but I think it’s easier for Christians (and many pastors) to just chalk it up to drawing a crowd, or not being “deep” enough, or not caring about believers, than to actually engage our culture in a meaningful way.

By the way, I think Christians grow best (and I’ve seen this in our church – which has about the same percentages as you said Granger does) when they are actively engaged with non-Christians. We seem to be on a need-to-know basis – so when they sit next to someone who isn’t a Christian but is asking deep questions of faith in their small group, they are forced to dig in and discover what the Bible says and what they believe, and explain it in a helpful, relevant, and truth-filled way.

Tim – as I read the quote you shared in this post (commenting on GCC’s Reveal results) I get the same feeling in my gut as I did when Mark shared a post on his blog about a month or so ago from some people who attended Granger for a worship service and then blogged about it (unfavorably, for the most part). Here’s my gut – I see a lot of conservative Lutheran codewords in those comments. I’m not disparaging Lutheran understanding of the gospel here, at all. It’s beautiful. But aren’t you guys close to Fort Wayne? A cradle of conservative Lutheranism. Sadly, Lutheranism developed based on what its adherents are against as much as what they are for. That genetic framework certainly applies to the way Lutheranism developed in the U.S. — i.e. with much contention between the different expressions of it that cropped up here. Lots of “ain’t nobody right but us” attitude and self-understanding as the one true church. I think you’re just seeing some quotes from the conservative fringe of an otherwise beautiful tribe of Christ followers. It might be okay to shake the dust of your sandals relative to this stuff and ignore it. (And you might not want let this comment actually show up – it might draw out some flames).

Bruce Cole
Huntley, IL

And one more question…..Wouldn’t every Christian want to be part of a church like this? (and, no, I’m not a GCCer)

Simply put. I appreciate you.

Yes Paul did say, “I have become all things to all men as a means that some might be saved”, but he also said For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.” 1 Cor 2:2. Notice he didn’t say “Jesus Christ and Him crucified and secular music or 30 days of great sex or the purpose driven life.

Listen to you garden variety evangelical sermon and ask the following questions:

1. How often is Jesus mentioned? A simple tally will suffice.
2. Is Jesus the subject of the verbs? Is Jesus the one who acts, or are you?
3. What are the verbs? What has Jesus done and what is He doing?
(Wilken’s Sermon Review criteria)

You will be hard pressed to find Christ centered preaching in the modern day evangelical church! That is why among evangelicals, many don’t believe in salvation by grace and that there are other ways to eternal life.

I think both groups are talking past each other. The side saying it is wrong believes the results to not show that the lost are showing up but that you are teaching that you don’t need grace and their are other ways to God.

Your side is saying lost are showing up and we can teach them the truth.

The other side is saying no one is hearing the truth.

Do you see that? The criticism is correct if you teach heresy. You don’t, so you say great lost are coming to hear truth. But the results on paper don’t tell that story–so it is not that illogical to assume the former. (I understand–not fair too assume, but not illogical).

You can do the same assuming too. Assuming these people don’t want the lost in their church. You are both making assumptions. You know what happens when you assume.

Which of those “Lutheran codewords” are not in scripture? Rather than Lutheran codewords, I prefer to call it orthodox Christianity, “the faith once delivered for all the saints.” The early church was a Word AND Sacrament ministry. The modern day evangelical church and its antipathy to history is a modern day invention coming right out of Charles Finney and the 2nd Great Awakening. Evangelicals need to get over themselves and stop believing that church is something that was created the day before yesterday. Those that don’t learn from history and doomed to repeat it. Look at how many of the 20th century heresies from “evangelical churches” are just repackaged heresies from years ago. Have a little respect for those who have come before us! Read the early church fathers.

Would you call the Bereans “spiritual porkers”?

The meeting together is for the edification of believers. Sorry that’s not what I say, it’s what the Bible says. We are then to be prepared or taught to go out into the world and preach the gospel and make disciples. What ever happened to that idea?

I’m curious to know if you’ve ever listened to a Weekend sermon message from Granger Community Church. I dare say every one would pass your 3 questions with flying colors.

The other things you mentioned are simply what my dad who’s an “old-school pastor” would call “sermon illustrations”

First of all, great name!

I’m curious what you think Paul meant when he said, “all things to all men”…

Also, it seems like you are trying to make 2 different points. First, is the issue of using secular music in a service, and second, the issue of Christ centered preaching. When Paul was speaking at the Areopagus he referenced his audience’s objects of worship and even quoted their poets. Is not the use of a secular song to illustrate an eternal truth the same principle in action? I fail to see the significant difference.

Regarding Christ centered preaching – from the text, Paul doesn’t mention Jesus’ name, nor his crucifixion. He obviously references him, but only his resurrection. Based on Wilken’s sermon review criteria, Paul failed miserably.

Your conclusion seems to be that if someone uses secular music, clearly they are not presenting a Christ centered message. You also make a blanket, rather outlandish and unsubstantiated claim about the connection between the lack of Christ centered preaching and why many who attend evangelical churches “don’t believe in salvation by grace”. I’m curious what evidence you offer to link the two besides your very strongly held opinion. I’m also curious how many of the churches you lament have you listened to their messages week in and week out to draw your conclusions about the lack of Christ centered preaching in them.

Would you use any form of media to communicate anything to your audience? If not, why not? If so, would you only use a “Christian” song or video? What qualifies it as “christian”? Must the song also be Christ centered? Would you use the same tally and evaluation system for the song before using it? Would you ever attempt to use humor in a message? If not…wow. If so, do you only joke about “christian” things? Would a funny story about your children or wife or someone you ran into in the store be off limits?

Last question (only because you brought it up) – would it ever be appropriate to do A message (or part of a message) on what healthy sexuality looks like in a God centered, God honoring marriage? Would you ever address or make reference to the issue at all? Paul did. (Guess the widows and singles had to painfully endure the parts of his letters addressed to married couples. What about those that didn’t own slaves? All that instruction to have to sit and listen too. How inconsiderate of Paul) My assumption would be that you are against all topical preaching, but would you skip over those areas when teaching through 1 Corinthians 7? (exegetically of course) We’ve never done a series on sex, so I don’t really care one way or the other, but just curious what you think.

What is difficult for me to meet you on is that your boundary on what is acceptable and unacceptable and what constitutes Christ centered preaching and what does not really does seem arbitrary. If “secular” is the boundary, then there’s a whole lot of hair splitting that you’re in for. It feels like that you don’t like what you see and hear other churches doing, so you criticize, and lecture on Christ centered preaching. Which is like the ultimate trump card because, who’s going to say that they’re for non Christ centered preaching?

One last thing, in your comments to Bill(cycleguy) you quote Michael Horton. The problem I have with his quote is that it makes believers or “the reached” as the focus. Shouldn’t “the reached” have been trained how to worship God regardless of style of music? Pretty shallow if someone takes their ball and goes home because they prefer a different style of music. Shouldn’t believers know how to feed themselves before coming on Sunday? Shouldn’t a believer be “doing the work of the ministry” as much on Sunday morning as on Monday morning? Shouldn’t “the reached” care as much about the outsider they’re sitting next to as their church does? Especially if they are really that close to the heart of God. If not, that is where the leadership of the church is failing. I know, I know…all that man centered preaching is producing this crisis, right? I say we go back to focusing just on insiders…that was working so well. (please excuse my sarcasm…I couldn’t help myself)

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree

“I’m curious to know if you’ve ever listened to a Weekend sermon message from Granger Community Church. I dare say every one would pass your 3 questions with flying colors.”

Now I’m wondering if you’ve ever listened to a sermon from Granger. I’ve listened to a number of them and have yet to hear one that meets #2 or #3. The sermon on “You 2.0″ was a perfect of sample of missing the point – it’s entire purpose apparently was to rally the troops about being a “better” you. What about the gospel?

I have to completely agree with Tom here. The church gathering or “assembling of the saints” as the Bible calls it is not meant to be primarily a tool for evangelism. While I have nothing against Granger or similar churches, I do think it’s erroneous to treat our weekends as a time FOR the unbeliever. That idea is not supported by scripture, sorry. The Word does mention the unbeliever in the church. But nowhere does it define the church as a gathering FOR the unbeliever. In fact, scripture goes through great lengths to define it as just the opposite.

Gary/Tom — Great discussion. I’m going to do a new blog post on this to keep the topic going.

“What is wrong…?”

Why would you want unbelievers contaminating the faithful? It’s just like an NFL player saying “Not in MY house!!”

What’s that?

Oh.

It’s GOD’S house? And my opinion and $5 will buy you a cup of Starbucks?

Never mind, then.

“Word and Sacrament ministry” is not in Scripture. It’s a derivative. The 5 Solas are strong – but not exhaustive exegesis of Scripture. “Salvation by grace alone” is not exhaustive exegesis. Ordination is arguably not in Scripture. It’s a possible derivative.

Not trying to be contentious or mean-spirited here. Nor am I suggesting that Lutherans need to get over themselves. All thought, that might not be a bad thing. I am one (a Lutheran) and it’s not as hard as it might seem. I have plenty of regard for the early church fathers…and Luther…and Finney and Edwards. And I think many modern evangelicals do, also. You paint with a pretty large brush. So, I won’t wrestle with you over “respect.”

Shine Bright -

Bruce

Granger CC is guilty of causing way too much rejoicing in heaven. Sounds like some of your readers would like to keep the noise down.