Wow, thanks for the reminder.

Tim,
Thanks for the AMAZING post…that’s what I appreciate about you and Granger. Your willingness to ask tough questions about how we move people closer to Christ and become more like HIM.
BTW-I attended leadership live, and I was so impacted by your (Granger & staff) love for Jesus, that we are bringing our whole staff team to Innovate 09.

Tim-

I think we’re doing a fairly good job in this area, although it is a constant struggle to get it right.

I measure it in terms of times per week per person/family (I know, not suppose to measure. Here’s how it breaks down-

1 – The baseline expectation is to engage 1 time per week in the church. This is usually the weekend service(s).

1.5 – The vast majority of our people fall in this category and and that’s where I want them. They engage 1.5 times per week. Most of the time it is here on the weekend and involved in another program/group/event about every other week (that’s the .5). I’ve seen in todays young families, this is the sweet spot. I can expect this and they can commit to this.

2 – This is for our leaders. 2 times a week. They are actively involved in the weekend experience, an every other week small group/mission group then also some sort of ministry team.

This is the ideal. Are we hitting a homerum? Uh, probably not, maybe a triple. It’s hard for people who grew up in a traditional church environment to get this (that includes me).

scott

Great thought and great perspective, Tim. I think for some, striving to be a “good church member” by doing #1 – #16 can be a lot of pressure, and can almost feel like a second job, with expectations and responsibilities that they “must live up to.” I believe that this can be especially true for newer Christians who are feeling out their role in the Body. Good stuff, and to echo Fred above, thanks for the reminder.

Tim,

We don’t do a lot of those things listed – (no Sunday School, men’s ministry, women’s ministry, we don’t talk accountability partners) – so we talk about worship in a large gathering, connection in a smaller gathering, serve somewhere (inside or outside of the church), invest in friendships with people far from God. BUT, the question is – it seems – one of balance. We can’t expect 17 different things from “average Joe”, but, some people need to be called out to the greatest mission on the planet, the thing we were designed for. So, we’re trying to figure that out. Not having too high of expectations for everyone, but not having too low of expectations for someone. Any thoughts or another post along those lines would be awesome. Thanks for all you do!

I agree it’s a lot to ask, but I believe the Acts 2 church modeled it and God blessed it. It seems that people who see the importance of those things for the sake of their own spiritual growth, not for the sake of doing stuff for the leadership of the church will have a greater reward then those asking them to do them. I don’t think we are asking our congregation to finish the to do list but rather lead and teach them to prioritize the things that are Kingdom focused; There is where the spiritual fruit can be measured. Not by how many people attend small groups, but by how many attend small groups. If people in your ministries are serving, and loving serving them I think they are getting it. They are not their to serve the church, though that is a payoff, they are their to serve Christ.

Here is what works for us.

Worship Christ:
First we want people to worship Christ, and understand what that means, looks like and how to live that out. In every setting, Harvest Bible Chapel is seeking to make disciples who worship Jesus Christ in spirit and in truth with their entire lives. By God’s grace, we strive to implant solid truth-filled and Spirit-led worship into every available opportunity from our weekend worship services, to our prayer nights, to our small group nights and so on. Worship is more than singing, and we want to see Jesus glorified by men and women who worship him in everything they do.

Walk With Christ:
The second critical component of a disciple speaks to the believer’s day to day walk in faith, and we believe that our walk in the Lord benefits directly from a dynamic fellowship with other believers. In short, connecting with the rest of the body of Chris is not only helpful, it’s critical. Most vividly portrayed here at Harvest through our small group ministry, we are looking to encourage one another to grow in Christ through accountability, prayer, and Bible study.

Work for Christ.
Finally, Harvest Bible Chapel seeks to be a church where believers in our midst are pushed from looking at self, out into active roles of service in our church body. Taking our lead from Jesus who gave his life for us, we seek to make disciples who give of their time, energy, skills, and spiritual giftedness to build up the body of Christ through service.

hey man, i am right there with you.
i appreciate your heart in this.
this attitude in my mind is a very real form of pastoral care. making sure that people dont feel those expectations but see them as options is a big one to us.
always challenging stuff. love you guys at granger and what you’re doin for the king and his ‘dom.
later.

Good post, and right on the mark.

thanks for writing this, i feel so conflicted sometimes trying to fit all things asked of me into a week…it’s just not possible, but it didn’t stop the guilt, but it’s nice to see someone else is thinking about this

We teach them about the PERSONAL MINISTRY MATRIX (sounds nerdy – but has been extremely helpful for us).

You can read about it here: http://www.citylifechristianchurch.com/?p=162

Then after doing all those things along with my spouse, to get terminated because of not bringing my department to the next level and basically get slapped in the face. Quite literally my wife will probably never get involved in church life and church fellowship again. And no pastor or member from this church has ever cared to apologize to her or myself or my two children. I’m sorry to be negative but the church has some answering to do. I sometimes think that if Christians can get away with treating their brothers and sisters like this, I may as well start doing it to people as well. What’s going to happen to me…it will just get swept under the Christian rug titled “look the other way” not to be brought out again. Sorry I got a little off track there Tim.

Yes, all of that IS a lot to ask…of ONE person. However, all of the things you mentioned are good things that are worthy of being done in the name of the Lord and done the very best they can be done.

Someone has to do them…the weight of effectively managing all this activity is on the Church leadership. However, each of us are accountable for the things we do and those things we don’t do.

Great thoughts, Tim…

I think the amazing thing about this post is that Tim is a full-time pastor, and he’s actually writing this stuff! Thanks for having the guts to write about publicly, what the rest of us feel guilty about privately.

And the comment about porn made my wife and I laugh out loud.

Tim, this is a very insightful post. I love that you are questioning what many see as the “regular” measures of success. It has so much less to do with Sunday School rolls or Sunday morning attendance and everything to do with the quality of their walk and spiritual growth.

Many are being driven out of churches that are constantly bombarding them with task lists and huge lists of things to do. Integrating their spiritual journey into the everyday – whether by podcast or Tweet or post or IM – is paramount in today’s society. Great stuff.

Great post. Thought provoking and convicting! Need to digest…and share with my fellow Elders at church! Thanks

I agree that the church needs to be careful about inserting so much “stuff” in its calendar to fulfill the need to be “doing something.” But I don’t know that allowing people to say “Church, we’re just not that into you” is a great alternative. The church (following Jesus’ lead) must call people to make their relationship with God a priority. Which would mean choosing him over our “things” (Luke 18:22) or causing disagreement with family (Matt 10:35).
I’m sick of people who talk about how they are into service, but then can’t make it to any service opportunities because they had in-laws in town, or they are going to the lake that week, or the kids have a soccer game.
I agree that we should move to a focus on spiritual outcomes, and that activity participation does not equal spiritual participation. But the big question sitting out there still is HOW to measure spiritual outcomes, especially if all you know of a person is that they sit in the 4th row on Sunday mornings.

I remember once having to miss a family night because I had to be at a “Men’s Meeting” for the purpose of becoming a better husband and dad…

The vivid ridiculousness of that irony left a lasting impression on me.

With respect to your list, here’s what we do…

NON-NEGOTIABLE (Or, the things we strongly *winkwink* encourage)
Attend church service weekly
Volunteer to serve in a ministry
Get in a small group and meet regularly

NATURAL (Or, things that should just happen, simply because the bible asks)
Spend time with Jesus (Read your Bible every day)
Be a good citizen. Vote and get involved in your community.
Give cheerfully
Spread the gospel (Go on a missions trip)
Invest in relationships in your neighborhood and at your workplace.
Invite people to church.
Be a great husband or wife and invest time in your marriage.

OPTIONAL (Or, great things that can happen, but aren’t pressing)
Serve in a ministry that helps the poor and needy.
If you are a leader, then we’ll have a few more meetings to attend.
Attend periodic special events hosted by the church.
Mens’ or womens’ ministry.
Mens’ small group for accountability.
If you are married, you probably should also be in a couples group if you care about your spouse.
Attend Bible study or Sunday school or midweek service (whatever brand your church offers).

You were obviously using hyperbole, as no well-ran church makes their parishioners do all 17. Crazy if they did. Like, SBC crazy…

Thanks for posting this. I quit going to church a long time ago because I realized I was real good at being busy with Christian stuff, but all that good “stuff” kept me from serving and loving like Jesus would. Now I don’t go to church and I’m able to spend time with those Jesus called us to spend time with.

Best blog I’ve read in a long while! We (the church) can be great at “imputing” guilt, but not so great at “imputing” grace. Provocative! Keep prodding at out thinking Tim! You might just be a writer (From one who’s written a few myself! LOL)

I would love to use this as a guest blog on my website, (fully attributed of course) Is that possible?

http://www.GodChasers.net

BTW, I love Granger website!

Tommy – yes, that would be great to see the article re-posted on GodChasers — thanks!

Tim – absolutely brilliant post. In light of the recent research about mega-churches and their lack of volunteer involvement, etc. I find this reminder refreshing not only for attendees of a church, but also as a staffer. There is no possible way I can do all of those things, why do I expect someone who is attending our church to do the same?

Great post!

Good reminder. Thanks for the post!

Thanks! Will be up by weekend! Been following the Granger story for sometime now, love the “stuff” you guys are doing. Blue Man was off the chart! May surprise you guys and just drop in sometime.

Great observations!

Great Post and very well said. I’d love to hear people’s thought on some of the spiritual outcomes churches are “measuring” I know of a church that is starting to measure community service hours spent by their congregation. As an example. ANy other thoughts?

We actually have grouped our people into three categories.
1. Crowd – occasional attendee. They come to church less then 12 times a year.
2. Committed – Interested but not yet all in. They even give occasionally.
They come to church 12 – 17 times a year.
3. Core – This is the all in crowd.
They come to church 18 or more times a year. They give on a regular basis; they serve in at least one ministry and have signed up to be church members. They are all in.

We have done a great job attracting the crowd. Now what we are working on is getting the committed over to the Core.

Well I hear you …. but …

We came from a church where we were so busy that I am still waiting on my backside to catch up.

It was an exciting church where people would get off work to come by the church to see what was happening. The main morning worship lasted 3hours or so w/ Choir concert every Sunday morning. Wednesday night bible study, thurs nite intercessory prayer, tuesday nite choir rehearsal (except b4 real musicals when we rehearsed 2x per week), food bank, monday nite gang intervention where Crips & Bloods sat on diff sides of church & 15y/olds drove lexus’s to the meeting. Oh, did i mention invites to other churches for Sunday pm services & revivals (cause pastor could PREACH). New member classes and fellowships all the time. just no small groups.

So when we started pastoring we thought we would cut back on activity to grow deeper personal relationships. Guess what, since the people had not invested their lives, they did not feel the ownership w/i the membership and it showed. We kicked up the pace and instead of running them away, it brought them in and they brought in even more.

It was really strange, but I don’t worry or fuss about commitment or activity anymore. Running them like race horses is not a bad thing when the horses are thoroughbreds . Still feels strange and counter intuitive.

In Him,
JMb <><

Totally Awesome TRUTH!!

I know some CHURCHES in Edmonton that TELLS you if you Don’t Attend HERE their Church!! You are not welcome for Special Events!! and Worse thing of all telling you that is you don’t get Healed you must’ve Sinned/Lack of Faith etc!!

Seen this in LOTS of our Churches in Edmonton/Area and it makes me SICK”Throwing Up”!!

Tim, great post and so true. I think The Village Church is probably a church lining up with this.

Actually, we’re commanded by Scripture to not shun gathering with the brethren. There is no such thing as a Lone Ranger Christian.

I agree that some churches do a very poor job of prioritizing ministries, and leadership – real leadership – from the front is often sorely lacking – but refusing to attend a regular gathering of believers is unscriptural and errant.

Joe, the rest of that passage goes on to say “and let us encourage one another and all the more as you see the day approacing.” You’re right we should meet together but people should also be encouraging each other and that wasn’t happening for my wife and I and maybe others too. If we are the body of Christ and the family of God and call ourselves Christians we need to start living it or change our name.

What is Granger’s approach?

Hi Tim,

Great post! I just found you by way of twitter (I am recovengineer).

Thanks for calling attention to the fact that attendance does not necessarily equate to a spiritual outcome. I am a deacon in my church (also in Indiana), and I often feel incredible pressure to give more and more time at church to activities. While I recognize the intent is to lead people to spiritual maturity, I’m not convinced that activity and attendance are the best measures of this internal growth.

I don’t have the silver bullet answer for knowing when engagement with the community starts to become more about “being seen” than it does with connecting with God and his people. Even as I write this comment, I am struggling with how to concisely state the thoughts that run through my mind – Legalism vs. Grace, Internal Growth vs. Observable Behaviors – the list goes on and on.

Suffice it to say, that I am excited to see a pastor acknowledge the struggle and to openly state that acknowledgment.

I look forward to reading more of your posts.

I used to feel guilty about my “lack of involvement” at church. My husband and I are foster parents, have had 20 some odd kids over the last 5 years, these kids have some serious issues and the last thing I want to do is deal with more kids. Yet I would always hear that the reason MY kids have a place to go is because someone is volunteering. I finally decided I was just not called to nursery duty. I’ll go to the womens conference, but I no longer plan them. I will talk to anyone interested in foster/adoption but I will not lead the group. My mission is in my home 24/7 and if the only people I bring to church are those 20 some kids for the next couple of years, that is going to have to be ok.

I was at the Less Clutter, Less Noise workshops this week, and Kem gave us a copy of this entry. You hit the nail right on the head. Thanks for the reminder.

I apologize on behalf of those people who you touched with your ministry but haven’t been able to say sorry for what happened.

What Tim described is certainly a problem! My opinion is that we ought to equip people to seek God, hear, His voice, and do His will. We need to support them in whatever way God leads them.

The problem described is most common in “single cell” congregations which communicate the expectation that whatever ideas the leadership comes up with, everyone ought to support with their participation.

I am a children’s director who spends a lot of time recruiting parents to serve in our ministry. When I hear people say I’m just not cut out for it, it makes me sick. We invest hundreds of hours in your kids a year, and you can’t give up an hour of your time to help kids begin and grow a friendship with Jesus. I think it is pathetic! The church is the hope of the world. Let’s act like it.

This character trait may be unique to my shape, but for me saying “NO” is much more difficult than saying “YES”. Especially within the context of a “the stakes are high” message expertly crafted and delivered on a consistent basis. A message, by the way, that could not be truer and in more urgent need of passionate expression into this fallen world. The shepherd must do what the shepherd is called to do, but so must the sheep.

As a lay person who has followed Christ for 30 years I believe taking responsibility for the governance of my soul, demands the same ruthless scrutiny as a Pastor charged with spiritually feeding a flock of thousands. After all, when I finally meet Jesus Christ I won’t be holding my Pastor’s hand when He judges my actions or lack there of.

The war is raging and in need of heroes but too many are jumping into a pit with a lion without counting the cost. Christ sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane because He counted the cost and “KNEW” the lion’s den He was entering. Seems to me it’s in the cost counting where faith finds a worthy opponent and courage and sacrifice are born to the glory of God. Leaning forward to scan the battlefield for landmines in order to take decisive action is an exercise in intelligence not cowardice.

All this is to say I’m glad the church has “high expectations” of me and provides me with numerous opportunities to serve within the community of believers here at Granger. I hold no grudge with any Pastor or church asking great things out of me. Keep asking…you should, but shame on ME if I abdicate MY responsibility for the setting of worthwhile spiritual goals and boundaries to any Pastor or church.

One last thing about fulfilling the expectations of others; its plain old hubris to imagine I have gifts that just aren’t there. Countless failures have taught me to get up off the ground and judge with humility what is “my best effort”. Yes, I run the race to win, but if after giving my best I end up dead last I can still hold my head up high, if and only if, I know I’ve given “MY BEST”, not someone else’s opinion of what is my best. My best is and always should be a measurement beyond the ability of my local church to “measure” and is my personal gift to the one who gave His best for me.

I agree, as a volunteer I have found many of the points you made to be true as well as a few you didn’t.
My experience comes from 2 large growing and would be called leading churches in their denominations I still attend one.

1. Never giving volunteers a break even on weeks where we know turn out will be extremely low. We need protect our volunteers from burning out.
2. I see leaders cycling through doing whatever is asked of them and left wanting for real meaningful relationships.
3. Some small groups are like an AA meeting and if this method is ever questioned you might be looked at like Al Gore looks at someone who says global warming doesn’t exist. I know we need to connect in smaller groups this is just an observation.
4. Clearing SS roles. I have been handed hundreds of numbers of people who have attended church at one time or another to follow up on where they are now and if they are still attending somewhere.
5. I have seen many people treated as though they were employees vs volunteers and the expectations of your (duties) were unrealistic at best.
6. Don’t laugh… but I have been involved in what I call a volunteer review. This is where we hear where we are serving well and where we can do better. This was not church wide but it was done in the ministry where I was involved.
7. Churches have to protect themselves form the cooperate feel that seems to be taking over. Volunteers I know have the feeling they are a disposable commodity.
8. A lot my friends are Pastors and these are people that are admired by not only people at the church but in the Christian community at large. They are so busy doing ministry they don’t have time just to be, in their neighborhoods, with friends, with family, with anyone. Relationships with them have turned into another meeting over another cup of coffee.
9. Volunteers want to know they are making a difference in their community as well as their church. There are only so many hours in the week and after a 40-50 hr. work week our time is limited and valuable. When we are asked to help our time shouldn’t be wasted. I have waited for pastors for over an hour past our meeting times on several meaning (30) occasions because other meetings have gone over. Volunteers want to help but when this keeps happening we stop and the newest volunteers are exposed to the same routine that made us stop volunteering in the first place. I see this cycle happening all over the place and good leaders are being lost.

I know this is long and I am sorry for that but I think these are important issues as well. I love the church and love to volunteer.

Oh my goodness, there are tears in my eyes, a huge lump in my throat and a desperate, near frantic desire to find a way to “anonymously” forward this to my pastor.
My husband and I just stepped down from 18 years of leadership in a growing, thriving church because, frankly, we just couldn’t take the pressure of D.) All Of The Above any longer. We love God, we love this church and the work of the Kingdom but MUST it be so difficult? Must we feel like we’re constantly failing because we just can’t do it all? Something about that just doesn’t sound like the God I know and sooo…the merry-go-round will have to spin without us because I am convinced that there is a way to serve God and live a life that vitally impacts His kingdom without having to drink somebody’s kool-aid to do it.

Glenda, If you only you knew the truth.

Pam…I pray all church leaders will read your words and purpose not to do that to our best and brightest leaders.

Josh – Your comment brought to mind a conversation I just had a couple days ago. I have a little different take than yours, so I’m going to write a post about and throw it out there for discussion. Thanks for getting this started.

We called it “playing the God card.”

No matter how busy you were, or how burned out you were becoming, the senior pastor is persuasive enough (because that’s what they do) to get you to add another item onto your list.

This is why I work in one church, am a member in another, and anonymously worship in yet another whenever I can.

Glenda, thanks. I forgive them.

Eugene Peterson’s “Working the Angles” addresses these concerns powerfully and prophetically for us “pastor-types”. He says in “The Contemplative Pastor” that our primary call as pastors is to teach the congregation how to pray (i.e. pay attention to God in ALL areas of their lives). This is no small task, nor is it easily “measure-able”.

This is interesting… and scary! I think churches try to meet many needs and they should be commended for that…..not condemned!

When you consider all the things the devil offered;
crack, weed, gay marriage, internet, porn, guns, violence, profanity, alcohol ~ 24 hours a day!

I think the response should be ~ HEY CHURCH, thanks for being interested in ALL of me!

It is so funny, they use to say, all the church wants is your money! Now churches try to meet multiple needs and they get knocked for that too? How do churches win……and this thought from a pastor???

The data does not back up your thesis? Teenage pregancy, teenage sucide, teenage drug use..

Family divorce, family assault, family division…
sin………are on the rise?

Those who are just into the church, are 9 times out of 10 more involved in SIN. We live in a world that doesn’t want to be accountable.

Try this! It has worked wonders at our church! Offer a sign up sheet! Those interested will sign up and attend. Those who don’t sign up, don’t have to come!

My guess is you will see them later in a counseling session when SIN has ranned its course.

Hey SIN, we are just not that in to you!!

Thank you Luke! I was reading some of these posts and thinking the same thing. Your post helped me maintain my sanity. This is a dangerous precedent!

Telling the church, you are just NOT into it, is the equalivalent of telling GOD ~ ENOUGH ALREADY!

Most people want more time to SIN! Tell SIN,
You are just not that into it!

Excellent!